On this episode, Jenny is again joined by Shelby Auer, Account Manager at Hedy & Hopp as they bring even more insights from their time at SHSMD 2023. Today she and Shelby discuss the evolving landscape of healthcare marketing regulations, pointing out changes in marketing practices driven by HIPAA, FTC, and state laws. Jenny highlights the importance of understanding GDPR, even for U.S.-based businesses, as opt-in policies and the “right to be forgotten” become more relevant. They also break down the growing complexity of state laws and emphasizes the need for collaboration between marketing, legal, and compliance teams to navigate these challenges.
Connect with Jenny:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennybristow/
Connect with Shelby:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/shelby-wanne/
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a privacy compliance program?
Book time with Jenny today: https://calendly.com/jennybristow/30-minute-compliance-consultation
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are Marketing Happy, a Healthcare Marketing Podcast. My name is Jenny Bristow. I’m the CEO and founder at Hedy and Hopp, a healthcare marketing agency. I am so excited to be here today. We just got back from SHSMD. I’m joined with Shelby Auer on my team, and we presented on, um, HIPAA, FTC, and state laws.
So, as most of y’all know, or you should know, the rug was basically pulled out from all of us. Um, a year ago today at SHSMD, there were many events talking about best practices for marketing technologies and your tech stack. All of those recommendations are now wrong. So I have a whole other episode that we’ll link to in the show notes that’s a 101 on HIPAA and FTC, but a lot of the questions I received were specifically related to GDPR and state laws.
So we wanted to talk a little bit about that first, and then [00:01:00] Shelby and I are going to dig into some of the feedback we received, because one of the cool things is we, as a result of being the first session on the one of the first sessions on the first day, is we ended up having dozens of folks coming and chatting with us about their individual team’s response, their legal team’s perspective, etc.
So we’re excited to share some of that. So first of all, I want to talk a little bit about GDPR and state laws. So first GDPR, most folks that are within the United States are probably thinking, Oh, I don’t need to worry about GDPR. We don’t sell to or do business with anyone in Europe. Well, maybe not. But here’s 2 key things about GDPR you need to know exist.
GDPR has 2 things that are very different from the way we operate within the United States. The first one is they are opt in versus opt out, which means, you know, how on your website, the cookie preferences loads, um, and you hit accept, um, you actually, if you hit do not accept, um, [00:02:00] or no, well, you have to hit, yes, give it to me, give the cookie me in Europe.
Whereas in the United States, you have to say, no, please do not put cookies on my computer and track me. And so it’s just a completely different perspective. And they’re tracking, um, percentages that are way, way smaller in Europe because most folks do not choose to opt in, whereas in the United States, most folks stay opted in and they don’t choose to opt out.
So that’s the first one. The second one is right to be forgotten. So pause for a minute and think about your marketing tech stack and think about if Jenny from St. Louis called you and said, Hey, I would like for you to delete me from all of your databases. Do you have any idea how you would actually do that?
That thought alone probably scares you, as it should, but again, that exists in GDPR and the United States, we mostly don’t have that. But there are four state laws that are currently online, California, Virginia, Colorado, and Connecticut, and California [00:03:00] is likely soon going to require data brokers to allow consumers to submit a right to be forgotten request.
So this is creeping into the United States. So it’s important to know how GDPR functions because we’re starting to see it show up in many other states. Um, we’re not going to go through all of the different state regulations because they are really intense. We actually have a couple of summary slides that I do in actual presentations just to give you a high level like cliff notes version, but your attorneys absolutely need to look at each state law and figure out how you need to comply.
Um, the other one that is really crazy is in Florida. Um, there are regulations around, um, having data stored outside of the country. So for example, if you use an offshoring company, uh, finding out where your servers are actually physically located, there are some repercussions related to anything [00:04:00] actually physically, um, or digitally outside of the United States.
Utah, Iowa, Indiana, Montana, and Tennessee are two that are scheduled to come online in the next about 12 to 18 months. And there are many, many more states that are scheduled to come online shortly after or are currently in legislative conversations and review.
So even if you’re a covered entity and you are, uh, complying with all things HIPAA, there’s still likely maybe some things that you need to think about at the state law level. And if you are not a covered entity, and you’re really just thinking about FTC, you also need to be thinking about state laws.
Washington, for example, has a regulation that says if you are a covered entity and you’re treating data like PHI, then that law does not apply to you, the regulations do not apply. But if you are not a covered entity and you are or are not treating data like PHI, it does apply to you. So for example, there are a [00:05:00] lot of what we call healthcare adjacent organizations that think they don’t have to really be thinking about this, or if they treat their data like PHI, they don’t have to worry about state law.
And again, that just isn’t true. These things are changing rapidly. Shelby, what are your thoughts on state laws? You’re working with a few different client projects right now from an audit and recommendations perspective and state laws get pretty hairy, right?
Shelby: Yes. Oh my goodness. All and figuring out how to approach the state laws because there’s a lot of conversation of, oh, is California the most strict?
Well, if we’re okay in California, are we okay in all of these other states? And it’s so, so important. I heard multiple people when we were at SHSMD say this, but to become BFFs with legal and privacy, legal and compliance. That is so true. So, so true. As much as it can be a little bit of a battle, making sure that there’s open lines of communication, that your [00:06:00] digital team is comfortable helping legal and privacy, understand the technicalities behind the changes in these laws and vice versa. Because that’s, that’s a lot of what I’ve, I’ve been working with clients is making sure that all of these different groups are talking to each other and help each other speak the same language because all of these state laws coming on are so hairy.
There is not a stop in sight. It’s just continuing to come down the pipeline with more and more states or additions to current state laws that are out there. So that’s, that’s really the biggest thing that that I’ve been working through lately and just making sure that everyone’s talking to each other and on the same page.
Jenny: Absolutely. Uh, the audit process that we talk about, not only in that first episode that again, we’ll link to in the show notes, but also that I presented at SHSMD is really doing that due diligence to show your legal and compliance teams that, Hey, I’m taking this seriously too. I am not putting my head, you know, down and trying to [00:07:00] ignore that all of this is happening.
We’re doing the work right now. I want to do the work alongside you, um, on the same side of the table, not opposite sides of the table. We both want the same thing for the benefit of our customers and patients 100%.
Shelby: And I think one of the things Jenny said, you said in your presentation that I think was really important for a lot of people to hear is right, this isn’t just your marketing, advertising and analytics platforms, but there are so many other things on your tech stack that are in the code of your site that are collecting things like IP address that so many people, you just don’t, you don’t even think about it. Right. And we didn’t have to up until late last year.
And so I think, yeah, that audit process is so incredibly important to have one place where, you know, exactly everything that is touching your site and what information it has access to.
Jenny: And not just your site, your entire digital footprint, right? Like there were some audible gasps in the room when I walked through some [00:08:00] examples of things our team has found during audits.
For example, I’ll just name a couple of them just to kind of help you help our listeners think about the broadness of this audit and the level of patient care that we need to have from a data angle. So one, for example is we have found on one site we audited that when forms were filled out on the website, that then field variables were then put up into the URL parameters.
So that means then things like Google or any other tool or software on the website are then indexing those URLs and all of that information, the person’s name, email address, whatever information they put in about the, um, you know, state of health, their health or any questions they entered is all now available free on the internet for all these tools to scrape.
Um, another thing is a lot of video players that are embedded on websites are actually behind the scenes pulling in IP and device ID information, which as [00:09:00] we all know now is no longer allowed. And then other examples are things like your call tracking tools or your advertising platforms.
Oftentimes we already know pixels can’t be on the site, right? We talked about that a lot. But what about the data that’s being in those platforms as far as, for example, call tracking tools has the phone number and then they have the recording of the call of them calling to make an appointment.
Advertising platforms, maybe, um, you’re maybe somebody in the past uploaded a patient, uh, list and they have lookalike audiences that they have built based off of that. There are all these different ways that you may inadvertently have been sharing this patient information. Audits need to be way more comprehensive than simply looking at your analytics setup.
So let’s dig in and talk a little bit about things that we heard folks doing. So we literally had a line at our booth almost the entire time, which was awesome to see, right? Like we love those conversations. And it [00:10:00] also is kind of disheartening sometimes because the number of people that came up to me and said, Oh, we thought we had it figured out, but everything you talked about just made me realize all of these other things that I need to look at now.
Um, and I, I hate that I started their conference in that way, but what are some of the things that you heard? How are folks approaching this?
Shelby: Oh, yes it’s, it’s interesting because there are definitely some folks that said, Oh, we took off everything. We went cold turkey and we are in this, you know, sixty to eighty day range of not really having much to be able to look at in regards to what we’re tracking until we get something else in place.
Uh, but again, this, I, I talked to individuals who, who were super on the defensive, right? Took everything off their site and yet there’s still issues popping up. They thought they had gotten everything and then they’re, oh, oh, yep, we got a video embedded on the site. [00:11:00] And I didn’t realize that that’s an issue, right?
So it’s, it’s, it’s been interesting to hear from the folks who, who were taking that stance that, yes, there are these things that are hidden that are hard to find, it’s not as easy as just, Oh, here are the 10, uh, platforms that we utilize in our week to week and, oh, we’re taking those off and we’re good.
So a lot, heard a lot of that out there.
Jenny: Totally agree. Some of the things that I heard is there were a variety of, um, orgs that came up to us that were in the middle of an implementation of either a CDP or a completely new analytics platform. And a large percentage of them actually had paused the work before coming to the conference in order to learn more about best practices and what other systems are doing before fully implementing them.
So those were some good conversations. We were able to share some insights about the tools they were looking to partner with some watchouts, um, and just some best practices about, which I think was really helpful. Um, other [00:12:00] things is, um, some folks did not realize that sometimes forms are actually implemented by third parties.
They just assumed it was part of the website database. So a lot of folks are going home, checking on that. Um, we have a lot of folks that are, um, going and checking on their advertising platforms. What else Shelby?
Shelby: There was, I will remember that, like, this was such a vivid memory, uh, in one of the sessions, someone asked such a great question about the video tools, right?
And they had said, you know, say we have a video on a page talking about West Nile Virus and tips and tricks when you’re dealing with somewhere where there’s going to be a lot of mosquitoes. What should you keep in mind? Right? So it’s, it’s more of a news story. It’s more of a tool. It’s not exactly a specific health condition.
And they’re like, [00:13:00] what do we, you know, is that worrisome? Should we not be, you know, utilizing those web posting services or having that type of video or any sort of tracking? And again, it was a panel discussion and everyone’s like, okay, you know, this is a gray area, right? You need to be talking to your legal and compliance, but at the end of the day, they could be researching, maybe they think they have West Nile.
Maybe they’re going to go talk to their PCP about some symptoms that they’re having. And so that’s how they got there. That really, the safest route is to make sure that you’re not utilizing any tools that’s going to be pulling in that patient information about what the content of the video is, even if it’s something that might even seem like, well, this is just educating the community.
This isn’t a specific health condition, which I thought was really important to think about.
Jenny: I agree. Um, a couple of examples we gave are, um, you know, if you’re a cancer center or if you’re [00:14:00] a, uh, breast health center or, um, whatever, if, if you’re not a large system where from your homepage, you’re listing out 12 different service lines our POV, again this is gray. Your own attorney needs to make this call. That our POV is you need to treat the entire website with care. You need to make sure that you’re not collecting IP addresses anywhere. Um, so some organizations had been thinking about only removing pixels from symptom specific or a super care specific pages kind of taking that bulletin verbatim.
But our POV is if you’re doing that, why not just fully protect that patient’s data throughout the entire journey, right? If anything, I think it’s easier from a tech stack perspective to treat all of it with the care and consideration that it needs. So, again, that’s something that they have to chat about with their internal legal and compliance teams, but definitely good food for thought.
So awesome. Well, thank you, Shelby, for tuning [00:15:00] in and for all of our listeners. I really hope that the GDPR and state law level information is helpful and guiding you and helping you understand the different questions you should be bringing to your legal and compliance teams again.
Cause if you’re on the same side of the table as them and you’re working together to make sure that patient information is safe and secure, it is such an easier conversation than if you dig your heels in and try to protect what you’re comfortable with. So thanks for tuning in. As always, Hedy and Hopp is here to answer any burning questions you may have.
Reach out to us. Otherwise, we’ll see you on a future episode of We Are Marketing Happy.
Fresh off the road from this year’s SHSMD Conference, Jenny and Shelby Auer, Account Manager at Hedy and Hopp, share their highlights from the conference in Chicago. They discuss various sessions and speakers, including insights on rural healthcare, brand management, internal communications, data-driven decision-making, and improving the patient experience. They also speak about the importance of learning and sharing experiences within the healthcare marketing industry to make a positive impact. (Check out the show notes on YouTube for links to our favorite speakers.)
Connect with Jenny:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennybristow/
Connect with Shelby:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/shelby-wanne/
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a healthcare marketing program?
Book time with Jenny today.
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are Marketing Happy, A Healthcare Marketing Podcast. My name is Jenny Bristow. I am the CEO and founder at Hedy and Hopp, a healthcare marketing agency. And I am joined today with an account manager from Hedy and Hopp, Shelby. Auer. So, Shelby and I just got back from SHSMD ‘23 in Chicago.
We had an amazing time and we wanted to do just a quick little recap for any folks that weren’t able to attend or even those who did attend but weren’t able to attend all of the different speaks, uh, talks, speakers. So, what we’re going to be doing is we’re just going to highlight a couple of things that really stood out to us as far as events.
We’re going to link to all of the speakers in the show notes, to their LinkedIn. And we’re going to tag them on LinkedIn. If you have any questions about the presentations, I’m sure they would love to talk to you about it. Everybody was so amazing at the event. So, Shelby, first of all, high [00:01:00] level, tell me about SHSMD.
This was your first ever SHSMD. So tell me a little bit about your, just some big key takeaways.
Shelby: Yes. Oh my goodness. It was so wonderful getting to meet and connect with such wonderful people. Everyone. I mean, Brad, or Bread, as I should call him, who kicked us all off with such a great, uh, keynote, really nailed, nailed it on the head in regard to how wonderful and weird in the best way possible the group at SHSMD is.
And so, it was so wonderful getting to connect with everyone and knowing that a lot of the HIPAA conversations that we’ve been having as an agency is really top of mind across the industry, so it was so wonderful getting to connect with so many people who really just want to protect their patients and figure out what the heck they need to do with everything that’s going on.
And so, it was wonderful getting to brainstorm and talk to such wonderful people.
Jenny: That’s awesome. I completely agree with you, just, healthcare people are the best people. So, let’s jump in and talk a little bit about some of our favorite sessions. So, I will jump in and go first. So, there was a, um, a topic specifically about rural health that I absolutely loved.
So, I grew up in a super rural town, um, there were 11 kids in my class from grades K through 8. So, super, super small. So, I was really interested in attending this one to be able to hear more from different POVs about how folks are actually approaching those communications, understanding what research methodology they’re using to understand their access to, um, internet, um, likelihood to schedule annual exams, those kinds of things.
The speaker was Pauline Hoffman. She was absolutely phenomenal, great speaker. Um, but there was a couple of things that she mentioned. One thing she mentioned, the phrase social listening, but she used it in a different [00:03:00] terminology, which I actually really, really appreciated. She used social listening by actually like using your ears, right?
Not using tools and software, but actually like when you’re sitting in like a PTO event or you’re sitting in a restaurant in your small town, actually listening to hear what people are saying about the physicians and the facilities because in small towns, a lot of folks are going to be talking just through word of mouth versus using digital platforms like you may see in more urban areas.
And then some of the other things that she actually talked about is, um, getting information, um, about your services to first responders, because they’re some of the people that are most trusted in your community and have the ability to share information about access to care.
And then the third thing is, she talked a lot about fighting disinformation. Um, and not only about, um, you know, your physician. and facilities, but also just about the world and care that we want to and [00:04:00] need to offer to help make our communities a healthier and safer place. Um, and she had some really interesting perspectives talking about how PR is generally not as understood and they think it’s more of a spin position versus trying to share her phrase was truth and trust, um, which I thought was really great.
So that one for me really hit home.
Shelby: Love that. Well, and speaking of PR, one of the last sessions that I got to sit on was with Karen Brodbeck who works with OSF Healthcare. So, based out of Peoria, Illinois, so a lovely Midwest sister over there. And, she talked a lot about their brand management and how they’ve really built a national brand, though they are pretty small and focused in the Midwest space, and it was really, really interesting. She told a wonderful story about how she was at Girl Scouts as a kid and was always told, if you don’t [00:05:00] ask, the answer is no. And so how she’s kind of taken that as a mantra in the work that she’s doing, and she’s constantly reaching out and applying for different awards or speaking opportunities for individuals in the system.
And, specifically, I loved some examples of the great stories that they’ve gotten out about their health care system and I think we saw it all over this conference about not only just consumer focused work, but also stories and how important that is, how stories and data need to co-mingle and work together.
Um, but they had a story that ended up in People Magazine, got picked up in People Magazine about a nurse that cared for a sweet, sweet little baby and ended up adopting, um, this little boy. And how one of their workers on their [00:06:00] government team ended up talking to his daughter about everything that was going on in Ukraine, and they ended up sending over an ambulance filled with a bunch of stuff to Ukraine.
He ended up going and just such, such amazing stories that they have such a good. system of collecting those stories. And that was a lot of what she talked about is how they’ve really built up a space where across all their health systems, they’re sharing those stories because it can be hard to do that when you’re spread across different areas.
And so that one was a really, really great one to get some practical information, but also to get to really celebrate her and her team and how far they’ve come.
Jenny: I love that. Lehigh Valley out of Pennsylvania, they were actually the last session on the last day, but Pamela and Kirsten came in with such amazing high energy.
It was so fun to watch them. They did something really similar, but it was specifically focused on internal comms. So, how do you better communicate, [00:07:00] um, especially, you know, to those frontline people, thinking like nurses, they’re so busy. They’re not going to have time to go log into an intranet. So they, in 2019, they actually launched, um, something, um, they use Sprout, uh, and it’s an employee advocacy tool within Sprout.
So that’s the backend of the system. But it basically is a social media platform for within their internal organization. So they can do everything from talk about new services, they can, uh, feature and highlight employees or amazing cases and outcomes. But the cool thing is they came up with a colleague ambassador program where they actually recruited about 30 highly influential folks across the organization and gave them access to the platform ahead of everyone else, gave them branded swag, all of this fun stuff.
Um, and then that helped really spread usage of this platform. And they said at this point, 88 percent [00:08:00] of their team downloads the app and uses it on a regular basis. One of their biggest spikes in usage is at 3 a. m. in the morning, which you know, is nurses, right? Working shifts. And that was the most difficult group to access before.
And the cool thing is they actually have it, it’s so well loved within their organization that they actually have people submitting and, um, putting content out and engaging with other people’s content all of the time. And they, they shared so many metrics about the number of posts and engagement that they receive on those posts.
It blows away anything else that I’ve seen as far as internal comms and the, the pride that they’ve built up within their internal organization. I mean, they had this tool, you know, during COVID, they used it to be able to make sure that all the communication was clear, it was just, they had the hashtag LVHN proud, and I was so proud for them just sitting there listening to all of their wins, because that’s a huge accomplishment.
Shelby: Love that. And it reminds me of, uh, one of the sessions that I sat in on again, kind of [00:09:00] talking about internal comms, but focused a little bit on when that’s not so easy and when it is really, really hard. And shout out to Jeff Stewart, uh, on the CHRISTUS Health team, because he did such a wonderful job being incredibly vulnerable, sharing very, very, uh, in depth and specific quotes that he received from executive leadership that were really, really difficult to receive when you’re going through a complete website architecture redo.
And some of the biggest takeaways from that discussion were, what do you do when you get that negative feedback, right? So he was really, really struggling with the physicians in their group because they basically had a website where there was so much competing information, the same information on multiple pages across so many different of their specific [00:10:00] health clinics.
And, the session I loved, it was called, Can We Just Put The Old One Back? Because four months after the launch of the new site, after they had data to show how consumers were able to more easily find and set schedule appointments, that was an exact quote that he got via email from someone that was, “You just got the old site and you just put it back up.”
Jenny: And I get that, right? Like these people are so busy. They don’t have time to learn a new site architecture. So that probably was really difficult for him to hear, even though he knew it was doing better.
Shelby: A hundred percent. And I love the way he gave some really practical experience on how do you deal with getting that kind of feedback and showing up with empathy first and understanding where they’re coming from and not going to defensive mode, you know, trying to protect your team has been working so hard on this, [00:11:00] but really trying to understand where they’re coming from and help them really take the data showing, Hey, consumers are utilizing this, but sometimes the data is not everything.
And so one of the biggest takeaways was also pulling in those stories. Here are individuals that haven’t received care in years and now they have a primary care physician. Like, those are the things to celebrate.
Jenny: Yeah. It’s absolutely amazing.
Shelby: Yeah. When those physicians voices, and that this was a big takeaway, when those voices are sometimes the largest voice in the room, everyone can agree that the patient’s voice is louder. And so, just figuring out ways to communicate that across your organization and to really help everyone move toward the same goal. It was really inspiring.
Jenny: I love that. So, um, Arkansas Children’s, they did an amazing presentation talking also about the power of using data for internal buy-in. And, um, you know, all organizations, many organizations, have this intrinsic belief that like, [00:12:00] we’re the best, especially if they’re in a space where there aren’t many competitors and they’re really one of the only large providers within your state or your region.
Um, and so what this group did, um, is they actually began using some, um, third party data to pull in to understand not only where the gaps in care are, so where, where are we within the state where there are large groups of pediatric populations where we perhaps don’t have an outpatient center location, or people have to drive more than three hours to be able to access care. And then they also use that data to be able to look at things like birth defects within certain counties of the state to understand what may be coming up as far as specialized services that they perhaps don’t offer right now, or they aren’t offering statewide in a way that can really service their growing population.
And it was really powerful because so many times we talk about data and dashboards and so many times it’s just focused on your own data and the power they had at pulling, um, mostly [00:13:00] free third party data that’s available through your state and county and some meaningful story that then can allow you to be much more comprehensive with your strategic planning was super just impressive for me.
It’s something that so many groups we work with want to get to, and it’s like part of the continuum, and it’s certainly a worthy goal. So kudos, Arkansas Children’s. So I love it.
And then I think, um, one of the other ones that I really loved was, um, Advocate Health. Kelly, Joe and Jamie. Their energy, it was so much fun watching them. So they were talking about, um, being consumer first, which all of us want our organizations to be. Um, but they were talking a little bit about, um, things like, how do you actually measure that?
Right, like, how do you, how do you talk about progress of becoming a consumer first [00:14:00] organization or improving patients access to care? Like what metrics are the metrics that matter? And one of the things that stuck out to me is they actually have developed this internal metric called ease of use. And that’s something that they use to be able to understand how things are progressing within their own org.
And so again, it’s like, um, it’s a made up metric, but it’s one they’ve all agreed upon as something that’s important and valuable to measuring progress. And I think that was a really good reminder that, um, you don’t necessarily have to use these industry standard, um, you know, statistical analysis or processes or formulas within your own organization.
You can decide, what is the metric we want to use to understand if we won or not? And that’s enough, right? Like that’s enough, that aligns all of your team as far as where that, um, you know, finish mark is. So it was really cool to watch them. One other, I want to call out Mary Cronin from St. Luke’s did such a phenomenal job.
She was on a panel of two other people, there are three people total within St. Luke’s. Um, and [00:15:00] they were, um, talking about strategic and design thinking within an organization, but one phrase that she said, um, that really stuck with me and I wrote it down verbatim is, “A way to be able to get organizational buy in is really thinking about that influence on the front end and the empowerment on the back end.”
So, as a strategist, it isn’t really our job to execute the concepts, but really is our job to be able to influence and then empower. So it was a really great takeaway.
Shelby: Oh, love that. And one of the, one of the sessions that I sat in on with Joel and Beth from Columbus Regional Health in Indiana, again, another Midwest friend, but, they talked a lot about this WellConnect system that they developed over the past 10 years.
And I love one of the things that they talked about as kind of a key takeaway was to be a gap filler. That [00:16:00] every system, like, there’s going to be gaps. They have a very diverse population and who’s going to do it if not you to help? And they really, really showed this sense of accountability for the community that they serve, which was incredibly inspiring, reminded me of what Brad said in the keynote about why do you love what you do and how powerful that question is, and it’s really, really neat to see that they have this free offering to their community where you can call a connection specialist and they’re going to help connect you to a PCP.
They’ll help talk you through your insurance if you’ve got questions or concerns and even connect you with other community organizations that can help support you. So if your insurance isn’t covered, oh well we know of this non for profit that will be able to help you. And it was just really really neat to see how they really took this idea that started with, okay, we [00:17:00] need a building downtown that can serve the community and how that just has spiraled over 10 years.
And now, they have all of these connection specialists and they’re looking to grow the team super soon. So kudos to them and all the wonderful work that they’re doing in their community.
Jenny: That is awesome. Um, a session that really reminds me of that is KC Children’s Mercy. They were talking about, um, how to be able to positively impact the patient experience.
So first, how do you decide what patient experience you want to improve? So they made this beautiful, super simple chart with four quadrants and, um, the variables about the quadrants is urgency versus frequency. So, they then mapped all of their different service lines within that chart to be able to figure out, you know, how to make the biggest impact.
And they decided they were going to focus first on, um, patients, pediatric patients that had multiple visits within one day. So it can be super overwhelming for the parent and for the child when they go and they have like five appointments stacked. [00:18:00] And so they began working with client services and a bunch of other groups within the organization.
And they manually executed their ideas to see if it made a difference before actually rolling it out. So my favorite example, and this is near and dear to my heart because so many of the children in my family have had long-term care issues in pediatric hospitals. Um, they began mailing these welcome packets or, um, um, anticipation packets like a week before the day where everything was stacked.
And it not only had a nice letter to the parent saying, here’s the name of your, um, care, what word did they use, it was like a care manager or your friend at the facility that will be waiting for you when you arrive and they’re there to answer questions all day. They would try to pull food vouchers if they were there all day and they met certain income requirements.
They had that information in their database. But then they actually would print out a schedule of the day with all of the appointments. And then they would provide [00:19:00] stickers for the kids to be able to put on the different events to be able to mark the completion of it. And they literally printed these out and mailed them for a period of time manually before they rolled it out formally to see if it works.
So I really like that scrappy initiative of saying like, hey y’all, we think this is going to make a big difference, but before we put tons of resources into it, let’s test and iterate and then we can roll it out. So it was a really great way to think about a physical experience improvement, um, in a, you know, test and iterate formula, because often we just think about doing that in the digital world, but it can still be done in the physical world as well.
So, I love it. So, uh, this was Hedy and Hopp’s second year, um, being at SHSMD. Uh, this year I did a presentation on HIPAA, FTC, and state laws. Super well received, standing room only, had so many good conversations afterwards. Um, but we will definitely be there next year. Next year is going to be in [00:20:00] Denver.
So if you have any questions about any of the sessions that we talked about, please reach out to the folks that we’re linking to in the show notes and tagging on LinkedIn, because the presentations were all just phenomenal this year. And I really look forward to next year to continue learning and meeting more peers.
So, thanks for tuning in. We’ll talk to you soon.
Shelby: Thanks so much.
On today’s episode, Jenny welcomes Ben Camp, CEO, and co-founder of RehabPath, a platform focused on improving the patient, caregiver, and family member experience in addiction treatment. Ben discusses the origins of RehabPath, which began in 2017, stemming from his prior work in marketing for addiction treatment centers and tech startups.
Ben emphasizes the importance of the user and patient experience and the challenges people face when seeking addiction treatment information online.
Learn More About RehabPath:
Connect with Ben:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamincamp/
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a healthcare marketing program?
Book time with Jenny today.
Connect with Jenny: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennybristow/
Explore what Hedy and Hopp can do for your healthcare marketing program.
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy – A Healthcare Marketing Podcast. My name is Jenny Bristow. I am the CEO of Hedy & Hopp, a healthcare marketing agency. And I am so excited today to be chatting with Ben Camp. He is the CEO and one of the co-founders at RehabPath. Welcome, Ben.
Ben: Thanks, Jenny. Great to be here.
Jenny: So, we met a while ago, but I went up to your office and chatted with your organization about a month or so ago when you were having your organizational all-hands and we’re doing some in person training for your team. And, I was really blown away by your focus on patient, caregiver, and family member experience.
So I would love for us just to back up a little bit and have you share with our audience your concept for RehabPath. Why you decided to create it and kind [00:01:00] of how you’re always thinking about that experience throughout the process.
Ben: Sure. Okay. Thanks. I appreciate the kind words. We really enjoyed your talk.
I think people were inspired by your take on marketing as well. So, we started the company RehabPath in 2017. But before then, my co-founder, Jeremiah and I, and some of the other founding team members, have worked at a marketing agency that specialized in a few different segments.
So, I’ll kind of talk about two. One big segment was addiction treatment. So, we worked with treatment centers and helped them do their marketing and really learned a lot about that patient journey, how complicated it was, how difficult it was for these providers to both run a successful program and also keep the beds full.
And so, we were able to work on some really good strategies for that with them. And then on the other hand, we worked with a lot of startups just in the, just like tech startups. So it’s not, we weren’t [00:02:00] as focused as you on completely healthcare. But I think that there were some benefits to that.
So we were working on the, kind of on the healthcare side, but also, yeah, on the tech startup side, and one of our big clients was a company called UserTesting.com and they did, they had a product. They still do. They’re now publicly traded, but they were super small back then. And they developed this concept for remote usability testing where you could at any moment, as a, marketing, a lot of marketing people use it. All sorts of people would use it. But at any moment, you could just order a test from their panel. And their panel was just regular people that would get paid. I think at the time it was, like, ten a test and it would go to, they would get an order for a test to be run and you would just have them walk through something that you are building or a website that you had and get feedback from them.
And we just learned how important it was to, yeah, get that user feedback as we’re building things, whether it was for our clients, or as we started [00:03:00] developing these, this concept of RehabPath before we officially launched it. So anyways, we just from the outset have had a real focus on putting user and patient experience first. And as we looked at the addiction treatment space, we saw that most people, when they have an addiction or mental health problem, they turn to the Internet first over family, friends, medical professionals and the websites that they were finding either were very hard and clunky to navigate and find help.
Kind of on even the sites that had really good intentions. And then there are a lot of websites out there that had really bad intentions and were using dark UX patterns to trick people into calling a hotline and trying to redirect them to a treatment center that is basically paying for those calls or paying for the website.
So, we build websites that truly are an independent resource. And put that patient experience first for when people are looking for treatment. We have websites that help them [00:04:00] navigate this really complicated process of finding a treatment center. And, that’s been something that we’ve been working on now for since 2017.
Like I said, we’ve got a pretty large team now and have made a lot of progress and have thousands of treatment providers on our website that people are able to find each day.
Jenny: I love it. I am just proud of you for the work that you’ve done. It’s really great to think about how many lives you’re positively impacting.
But, I’d love for you to talk a little bit about when you think about this space in particular, how are you and your team understanding what information should be highlighted within all of these facility profiles? And then how are you understanding how to best serve the patient or the family member that’s searching?
Ben: Yeah. Great questions. And I think, I mean, the lives being impacted is, like, why we, I think, both really enjoy doing marketing in this space is we know that. We’re not just selling. I mean, I love marketing any [00:05:00] type of product that I believe in, but it’s really great to do it for something that is literally saving people’s lives.
And, that’s the outcome of good marketing that you’re doing. So, we have a research team from the outset, our one person, that was Olivia. She’s now our VP of Research with a lot of people on our team. She has her Master’s in Addiction Studies. And so she heads up the effort that our team takes to work through all the information that’s out there about treatment centers and try to highlight what’s most important.
One thing that, we’ll, I’ll acknowledge is important for people when they’re looking and it sounds kind of, it’s definitely not the most important thing, but we found that photos and good, just information about what because we’re mostly working with residential treatment centers.
So someone’s looking at: “I’m going to spend 30 plus days at this place.” It’s really important for people to know what that’s going to look and feel like. So, I mean, we found that [00:06:00] the better photos and video that treatment centers have can really help people make a decision and feel comfortable actually call, picking up the phone and calling.
So that’s, like, pretty surface level and we obviously see some treatment centers that that’s really all they have to offer is a nice facility, unfortunately, but when there’s the combination of, we start with, okay, they have a really nice facility. And so we try to highlight that in the, you know, and if we are working with treatment, we often sometimes work with treatment providers that have really high quality treatment, but then their marketing assets are really bad. And so, trying to point them to agencies that can help with that, or we’ll even just go on site and do photography to help make their listings on our site look better.
Because we don’t want people to overlook a great treatment provider just because the photos are bad. If they have, yeah, so, that’s definitely one piece of it. But then we really work to try to highlight the treatment program itself and try to suss out what a [00:07:00] treatment center actually specializes in.
So it’s, typically, if you just give a treatment center a form and ask them, like, what they treat, they’ll check pretty much every box and kind of just, it’s very, and they, it’s very hard to get them to differentiate themselves from others because they believe in what they’re doing and just say that they’re the best at everything pretty much and have the best staff and all that. So, we do really try to take a, so it’s very helpful for us to take a bit of an independent look and see what they actually specialize in, what their staff, what their staff is credentialed in, and things like that.
And then we’re able to, we have a few different ways that we are able to highlight the, those specializations. We’ll certainly, like, make sure that everything that they treat is shown on the profile, but we’re able to, in the way that we kind of rank our centers, when you’re looking at a feed, if you’re looking for a certain type of treatment, we try to push up centers that specialize in that type of treatment.[00:08:00]
Jenny: That’s wonderful. I’ll say when we’re doing content marketing strategies for healthcare organizations, and then we go back and look at the data of what content is working the most, TikTok is so popular right now. Short form videos are the videos that get the longest watch time, most engagement are the “What to Expect” videos.
So for example, what to expect at my ENT pediatric appointment, or what to expect for an MRI, whatever it is. It’s boring content, right, whenever you think about all of the sexy, fun influencer content people are creating now? But at the end of the day, that’s what patients and their families need in order to help make a good decision.
So I totally understand positioning.
Ben: Yeah, well, back in the marketing agency days, like, one thing that we would do with a lot of our clients is recommend that they do, like, a day, what an average day looks like in treatment and doing a video around that is, like, it’s a really simple concept, but just kind of walking them through, like, what the daily schedule looks like.
And if it’s not a video, just making sure [00:09:00] that’s just even published on the website so people can really get a sense of, a day or a weekly schedule, what that’s going to look like. Because, most people are, that are looking haven’t ever experienced treatment before. So they need like, really want to know what it, what they’re getting themselves into.
Jenny: Yep, absolutely. And one thing I’ll say that I’d like to chat about a little bit more is what these local clinics are experiencing and facilities as far as actually trying to do marketing on their own. I mean, we work with a rehabilitation center and the Head of Marketing is also the Director of Admission.
So, we often see, like, multiple hats being worn. And so, I would love to hear your thoughts about not only what you’re seeing as far as that structure within the facilities today, but what changes you’ve seen since you’ve started this platform? And if there’s been any movement,
Ben: Yeah, I think the multiple hats thing is real, for sure. And, as we’re really passionate about the [00:10:00] patient journey, like I’ve talked about, but many of us that interact with our customers and have had a lot of experience doing that are also super passionate about helping these treatment centers run successful businesses and find people that can really use the treatment that they’re providing, so, I’m super empathetic to them.
And often just some of the most, like, passionate people that you’re working with. So I think, I mean, one thing that you’re saying the Director of Admissions and the and she’s also running marketing.
I mean, a lot of times the marketing that look that treatment centers are doing is a mix of kind of referral network building, so, I mean, they have, like, kind of on the ground marketing people that are making connections with local providers like hospitals, et cetera. And like, kind of doing that.
Like, I guess you would call it, like, old school, like, person-to-person marketing and that’s very effective [00:11:00] and, like, is a big way that treatment centers kind of build their beds and also, building that, like, alumni network. So, if someone’s gone to a treatment center and hopefully been successful just continuing to build that relationship with them over time is really helpful for getting those referrals in the future when they, because often these people end up mentoring someone that needs treatment and they’re able to point them to that center.
So, I mean, that’s really important, especially as a center, like, grows over time in terms of just, like, longevity, they can rely on more and more on that. But regardless, we see that digital strategy is really important on top of that. So, I was just talking to one of our customers yesterday and they were just saying how there’s so much overlap between that kind of on the ground referral marketing and the digital marketing.
And, sometimes people want to, like, in the CRM or something, put/decide which one gets credit and there’s a lot of kind of fighting over who, who actually filled that bed. [00:12:00] But often it’s a bit of a combined effort. So, I don’t know that I’m answering your question, but I’m just like, that’s just on my mind is that kind of, the pairing of the two is there’s a lot going on there as far as I’m trying to remember what your original question was now, maybe redirect me.
Jenny: Yeah, no worries. It just shifts, like, where you think it’s going to be going in the future from an industry perspective.
Ben: Yeah, I mean, we’ve seen, like, some shifts that we’ve seen is people kind of learning how to do their own SEO over time, which is good, I think, and not an over reliance on Google Ads, which had been a big way that people have historically filled their beds and are still doing that. But, I think that there’s one of the trends, even on the side has been, I mean, Google has gotten a lot better at surfacing, high quality content and user [00:13:00] first kind of content.
So, both our SEO strategy and then a lot of our clients is to just answer people’s questions, help them, like you were saying, like that whole, like, what is it like to go to treatment? Like, those types of queries are, have I mean, there’s not nearly as much kind of shenanigans on the outside as there used to be thankfully, and so it’s, we’ve seen some of the, some of the players in the space that were pretty low quality as far as websites out there to help people find treatment have, like, kind of fallen off over time because they didn’t ever really have that high quality of content. And so, just as we continue to invest in what we’re doing, we’re seeing kind of the rewards of that in terms of how our rankings continue.
And, like, when people are searching for treatment, they’re finding our websites because Google is getting data every day back that., “Oh, people come to this website and find what they’re looking for.” So that’s been really good. We, [00:14:00] a big trend is, over the last 5 or 6 years since we started RehabPath has been just the whole insurance thing, kind of post Obamacare where much more people are able to get treatment.
But then it gets complicated because people want to know, like, what their insurance covers and there’s a lot of restrictions on, but, insurance companies are always pushing back on what they will cover and things like that. So, that’s something that on our kind of road map is to help people navigate that treatment, like, looking for treatment with that information about their insurance.
So, if we had, I mean, a lot of times treatment centers have, like, a verification of benefits form on their website. We would love to centralize that so people can put in a verification benefits and then we only show them treatment centers that would work with their insurance so that it would just like, it’s just there’s a lot of as, it’s like, if someone picks up the phone, calls the treatment center, and then they find out, oh, like, they don’t take my insurance or they can’t, I can’t afford this, the chances of them [00:15:00] going and picking up the phone and calling another center just become less and less because it can be very demoralizing.
And there’s only that, like, there’s only those small moments where someone is, especially if you’re talking about the patient themselves, is willing to put in when looking for mental health treatment. It can be a very small window, so a lot of what we’re doing is just trying to make it so that when someone does want to make that decision, we’re taking all the barriers away.
Jenny: I will tell you, just from, I had a family friend that wanted to seek care about 10 years ago, and they ended up eventually just giving up. They, like you said, had a day where they said, okay, if somebody can find me care that I can go and check into now, I will do it. And there was no tool to search.
There was no way to be able to understand what resources even were available in the state of Missouri, let alone those that are nearby and those that accepted insurance. So huge [00:16:00] paradigm shift. So, I would love to end. Oh, go ahead.
Ben: That just reminds me of some stats that we’ve been looking at. And, I think this is from Sam.
So, I’m not sure it’s some government study. So in any, in a, in the year that they did this study they found that there were 659,000 people that didn’t get treatment, but wanted to get treatment for substance use disorder. And then they, here’s some of the reasons for no treatment. There was 221,000 people that didn’t know where to go.
There were 195,000 people that couldn’t find a program with the type of treatment desired. There were 75,000 people who couldn’t find a program close enough and then 37,000 with no openings where they looked. So, like, those are really interesting for us to see, obviously, and where we think that we can help more and more people, like, find a place to go find a program that has a type of [00:17:00] treatment.
If they can’t find a program close enough, help match them with one that they could go to and it gets covered by their insurance. So those are like, really interesting stats that we’re seeing around this. So, yeah, I mean.
Jenny: That’s an entire city’s population.That’s staggering when you think about it through that lens.
Ben: Yeah.
Jenny: So, I would love to end by you helping to help explain if there are rehab and behavioral health centers that are interested in being on your platform, what are the options? Like, if there’s a marketing person listening that wants to make sure their facility is adequately listed, how should they move forward?
Ben: Yeah. So, From the outset, our strategy is to, has been to be comprehensive. So we list treatment centers for free. And like, our research team is always looking for treatment centers that are on our platform that should be and so if a center’s, very likely a center that’s listening to us, if they’re in the US, they probably are on our platform already as a free listing.
But [00:18:00] if not, that would be the first step is to get them set up with a free listing. And then we kind of have this process where we, very similar to Google My Business, where you claim the listing and can make edits and things like that. So, we are able to provide value to centers just on the free listing side.
And then if people, if treatment centers are looking for larger reach, that’s where our advertising program comes in. So, that’s a really simple program. That is it’s cost per click. So similar to most digital advertising programs. So you pay for the volume that you get. So, basically, by turning on that campaign you’ll get a much larger reach off.
And it’s like, if you’re in one city, you’re getting access to neighboring cities, different targeting that you’re looking for. So, yeah, so the easiest way is just to fill out our contact form. And we’ve got a sales team that will, works up a discovery call and just make sure that you’d be a good fit, but yeah, I love it.
Jenny: Well, Ben, thank you so much for being on today. Thank you for the work that you’re doing. I’m going to share a [00:19:00] link to your LinkedIn profile as well as to RehabPath in the show notes, so if anyone’s interested in learning more, they know where to go.
Ben: Yeah. Thanks, Jenny. It’s been lovely getting to know you this year and just really excited for the opportunity to be on your podcast.
Jenny: Oh, thank you. And for all of our listeners, thanks for tuning in. We will see you on a following episode of We Are, Marketing Happy. Have a great day.
Today Jenny welcomes Sunny Yarrish, Director of Marketing, Digital, and Omnichannel at Myriad Genetics. On this episode, Sunny’s journey into personal branding on LinkedIn takes center stage. Although Sunny humbly claims not to be an expert, she gets results and emphasizes the power of consistency over perfection.
Her content’s positive impact is evident through messages from old friends, demonstrating the significance of meaningful one-on-one conversations. Sunny’s experience highlights that a life worth sharing yields valuable content, prompting listeners to rethink their LinkedIn presence and approach.
Connect with Sunny Yarrish:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sunnyyarrish
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a healthcare marketing program?
Book time with Jenny today.
Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn
Explore what Hedy and Hopp can do for you
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy – a Healthcare Marketing Podcast. I’m Jenny Bristow, I’m your host. I’m the CEO at Hedy & Hopp, a Healthcare Marketing Agency. And today I am so excited to have Sunny Yarrish. She’s the Director of Marketing, Digital and Omnichannel at Myriad Genetics.
Welcome, Sunny.
Sunny: Hi, Jenny. Good morning. Thank you for having me.
Jenny: So, I have become a huge follower and fan of the content that you post on LinkedIn. And that’s our topic today. So, I’m excited to have you on to talk a little bit about personal branding, because one of the topics that we hear about a lot is figuring out how to develop a personal brand on LinkedIn and the benefits of it.
So, you started a challenge in February this year. Tell our listeners a little bit about it.
Sunny: Oh, Jenny, thank you. I’m actually humbled to be here to [00:01:00] discuss this topic, because by no means I figured out everything. So I will treat this as a conversation, Jenny, kind of to reflect this journey since February, maybe at the end of this conversation, my answer will be more clear through this conversation.
So, yes. I guess before February this year, I was a very passive consumer on LinkedIn. So, I consume information. I treat LinkedIn as a platform when you announce bigger milestones, like you change your job, you got a promotion. So, you do that once a year or once a few years, you go there to say, hey, this is big news. That’s it.
So I think more and more when I spent time on LinkedIn, I saw people publish very interesting or educational or inspiring content. So, I would tend to like their content. So, even commented. So, I guess, February this [00:02:00] year, I started thinking is, I want to switch the role.
I don’t want to just sit there and just kind of consume information. I want to be a contributor to that platform. So, I guess, that’s how I put a switch on. So, why do I do it? Why do I set a challenge to do that every day? So, my challenge is every weekday, Monday through Friday. But, why switch a challenge on is, I think, before I get good at this, first stop is I want to be very consistent.
So, how consistent? Let’s make it simple. Monday to Friday. Every morning at eight o’clock.
Jenny: I love it, Sunny. And I love that you’re focused on consistency over perfection. Because I think that’s one thing that prevents people from doing things in their professional or personal lives is the fear of not being perfect.
But, I will tell you that one commonality with all of your posts is optimism and positivity. That’s one of the reasons I love following your content is, I know on my feed, it’s always going to be something uplifting. [00:03:00] It’s always going to make me just pause for a moment and reflect. So how do you decide what you’re going to post every day?
Sunny: Yeah, so how do I decide what I’m going to post every day? Right? So, I kind of sit down. So, I put a list of topics, what I’m interested in. So, of course, I’m a marketer, so I’m always interested in publishing lessons learned in the marketing field, especially in the healthcare space. So, sometime I’ll touch on a medical advancement, especially in my field.
So, that will be one of the topics. And, also I’m a huge advocate of personal health and growth. So, you will see, I will touch on the health topic in terms of running, fitness, forming good, long-lasting habits. How do we do that? And, personal growth is, I’m also an advocate of lifelong learning.
I always believe that the moment we stop learning is the moment we, [00:04:00] just being content with what we do, then we stop living the best of us. So, growth is another topic. So, if you’re putting this kind of health, growth, and marketing. So, I’m trying to get a good balance among the five days.
So touch on a couple of days on this topic, couple of days on that topic. That’s how I do it.
Jenny: I love it. That is wonderful. And, I’ve definitely noticed those pillars in your content. And, I will say the one about running definitely makes me feel like I need to go be more active. Your 5am runs to catch the sunrise.
I’m so impressed with you. So, talk to me about benefits you’ve seen so far, because I know one of the things that maybe prevents people from doing it is not really understanding the end goal or what benefits may come from it. So, I know you say, you’re not an expert, you’re just learning, but you’ve been doing this since February.
So, talk to us a little bit about the benefits you’ve seen.
Sunny: Yeah, when you say end goal, so since I start posting regularly, [00:05:00] believe or not, I got a text message or phone calls or LinkedIn message from my old friends. So, they were all asking, saying, hey, we notice you post very consistently. So, Sunny, what’s your end goal here?
Truly, I have to sit back, reflect, what is my end goal? So, I think, sometimes without a clear end goal is when I post something, I feel I spend a lot of time on posting, I got very few likes. I’m telling you, everyone has the vanity metric. So, in the marketing, we all have a metric.
So I feel like it’s disheartening. Why am I doing this? Why I’m kind of show up every day to do this then? But whenever I feel that way, Jenny, then I will tend to get, again, a comment or text message from people I haven’t, I guess, haven’t been touched for a long time. They just text me and email me saying, Sunny, we become your followers.
Then, your message is so [00:06:00] uplifting, actually touched me. I just want to let you know. So, I think from that moment is another thing is telling me is, when you show up on LinkedIn, just again, stop thinking about those vanity metrics. Really treating it as the one on one conversation with people.
And Jenny, you can tell I’m a pretty optimistic person. You see that. So, I want to be a source of positivity. So, I want to be able to relate the lessons I learned from the mistake I make or from the life journey I made. I want to be able to share that. So, if I just touch on one person, that’s good. So, treat that as a one on one conversation and also for the personal benefits.
Here’s I feel the most benefit to me is, when I just started posting back to February, March, I have so many content topics in my pipeline. I can sit there thinking, oh, I got everything figured out for next week. You know why? Because I lived a pretty interesting life. So [00:07:00] far, I moved to, I lived in three different countries.
I switched three different industries from IT, healthcare, medical device, and even the movie industry. I went to film school. So, I have a lot of interesting, and I run a marathon. So, from a person who hates running. So, because I feel I have these interesting stories, so, I can write them, share them. But, now, we are talking about six, seven months in, I kind of deplete my inventory.
So, what I tell me is if you want to show up on LinkedIn, you better have a life worth of sharing, worth of documenting. So, now I think writing on LinkedIn is a challenge for me. Every day is, Sunny, have you start a new challenge? Have you doing something worthy of documenting? Or, have you spent time reflecting?
So, I guess to write on every day, something worth of sharing is a constant reminder of living a life [00:08:00] worth of sharing. I hope that makes sense.
Jenny: Sunny, that is so beautiful. It absolutely makes sense and is very similar to the beautiful content you share on LinkedIn. So, I love it so much. And, I will comment and I will agree that many people on LinkedIn are passive consumers of content.
So, I, just like you, often people inbox me or text me or call me about a content piece that I published and never will have liked any of my content for years, but they were consuming it the entire time. So, I totally agree with you. LinkedIn is a little different from that perspective. So, well, Sunny, thank you so much for being on today.
This was a really fun conversation. Listeners. I’m going to put the link to Sunny’s LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Please go follow her if you want a daily dose of positivity each morning, and we look forward to seeing you back on here in the future for another episode of We Are, Marketing Happy.
Have a [00:09:00] great day.
Sunny: Thanks, Jenny.
Today Jenny welcomes Megan Cornish, a licensed clinical social worker turned healthcare marketer. Megan shares her unique perspective on marketing and copywriting in the mental health space, emphasizing the importance of positive messaging and careful language choices.
They discuss the intersection of marketing and clinicians in driving demand and the need for clinician involvement in marketing strategies. They also touch on the challenges posed by large companies entering the mental health space and the importance of viewing traditional therapists as allies, not competitors.
Connect with Megan Cornish:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-cornish/
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a privacy compliance program?
Book time with Jenny today.
Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn
Explore what Hedy and Hopp can do for you
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy, a healthcare marketing podcast. I am Jenny Bristow, the CEO and owner of Hedy & Hopp, a healthcare marketing agency.
I am so excited today to have Megan Cornish here with us. She is a licensed clinical social worker turned healthcare marketer.
So she’s bringing her clinician experience into the marketing world. And I’m so excited to dig into what that means. Welcome Megan.
Megan: Thank you so much. I’m very excited to be here.
Jenny: So we connected originally on LinkedIn because you were making some really fabulous posts talking about the intersection of marketers driving demand with clinicians satisfying that demand and then when things, you know, don’t quite match up.
And so I’m excited to chat with you first about how you approach marketing, copywriting, and [00:01:00] content strategy in the mental health space. So talk to me about some of the work that you do.
Megan: Yeah, absolutely. I think as a clinician, I have a unique perspective on things that I can kind of see the whole scope, the whole span of the treatment journey.
Marketers tend to view it as a funnel and their role ends as soon as that person starts treatment. But I kind of understand it on a longer scale where the clinicians are gonna start working at that point. But the marketer is actually a part of the treatment journey as well. So the way they say things, the way they get people into treatment really matters.
It’s really important because words are important and the way that these clients are viewing their treatment journey is gonna really play a big role in how successful they’re going to be in therapy.
Jenny: Yeah. So one thing that I have noticed in the mental health space in different communication strategies is fear based communications.
Talk to me about how [00:02:00] words matter when you’re trying to encourage somebody to enter a treatment journey. How do you approach it? And what is your perspective of how language matters?
Megan: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think as a clinician, if I have someone coming into my office who wants to change the 1st thing I need to help them see is what they want.
Not what they don’t want because it’s if you move away from something, you can move in any direction, but you have to know what your goals are and what it is that you’re looking for. So that’s super important. I think to to use positive tactics to get people into therapy in the 1st place.
Otherwise, you’re sending these people who are scared and are not in a good place to start. They’re not ready. They might drop out. You’re gonna have to spend more marketing dollars. You want to make sure that the motivation and the pathway into therapy is on positive. I also think it’s important specific words that are used.
You have to be careful how you talk about mental health. You have to be even down to little things like anxious people or depressed [00:03:00] people. We don’t, in mental health, we don’t label people that way because part of treatment is getting people to separate themselves from their issues. You can’t work on your mental health issues if you can’t view yourself as separate from them.
So, if the marketing itself is just reinforcing this idea that you are your problem. You’re not going to be able to have success in therapy.
Jenny: Absolutely. And I think it’s really interesting. We’ve done lots of provider based marketing to bring patients in. And one of the things that we often struggle with is the difference between how physicians talk about their services versus how consumers Google and research the services and the big gap between that.
So one of my favorite stories is we were redoing assets for different service lines and the cardiologist, the head cardiologist was reviewing the copy and he actually got really frustrated that it was “heart doctor” but that is how everybody Googles it.
Like people don’t [00:04:00] know the word cardiologist. The average reading level is actually quite lower, you know, than a doctor’s. So you have to actually speak to them in a way that they can understand.
Megan: Absolutely, yeah, I think that clinicians tend to be a little bit more in tune with that, you know, because a cardiologist, it doesn’t matter what they say the treatment that they give is going to be the same.
But for a therapist, what you say is the treatment. So we’re pretty in tune with what our clients need to hear from us, which I think is part of my superpower in marketing is understanding what resonates already as a clinician. I just kind of shift the way that I’m doing my work.
I’m still promoting mental health. I’m still bringing up motivation to change, which is something you do every single session. You have to help people tap in their motivation to change and their motivation to get better. And I do that in marketing now too. It’s just kind of on a larger scale.
Jenny: So, best case scenario, if there was a marketing team in the mental health space, at [00:05:00] what point is it the most important to have a clinician or somebody with a better understanding of the treatment plan to kind of weave in to the marketing team’s approach?
Megan: Best case scenario, I would say having someone as a partner or consultant all the way through.
Having a conversation like this, where you say, this is what we’re thinking about our strategy. This is what we’re thinking about our messaging. Like, what do you think from a clinical perspective? What do you think is going to resonate? All the way through to say, what’s the best way to describe this term for someone who doesn’t know what it is?
And then obviously, you know, at the end say, can you give a review? But minimum, you need to have clinician eyes on it before it goes out. You need to say, is there anything problematic about this? Is there anything confusing? Is there anything that’s clinically just kind of off?
I mean, down to it matters that people know who they’re being treated by and things like therapists and social workers, and these are [00:06:00] not interchangeable terms. Helping clients be clear and understand the system and not confusing them by acting like terms are interchangeable is really helpful.
Jenny: So, whenever we’re thinking about mental health and mental health services, there have been, as you know, some really large companies entering the space in a big way, right? So you see Headspace, [00:10:00] BetterHelp. And they’re coming in and they are trying to reach mass scale through these large nationwide campaigns to be able to provide people access to care.
And it’s kind of interesting. As a consumer you know, if I remove my marketer hat and I think of myself as a person that may need or one of my family members may need mental health services, it’s kind of interesting now that we have two different camps starting, right? You have like the huge private equity backed investments, and then you have individual clinicians or a smaller localized group practices.
And the marketing of those two is taking massively different approaches. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that and kind of how you see the environment right now.
Megan: Yeah, I think that it’s super important to understand where the money is coming from and why they’re putting the money into it.
And it kind of gives you some perspective. So these big venture capital [00:11:00] firms are helping these companies scale. Most of that is going to marketing and acquisitions. The problem that I see with that is that clinicians are actively working to get rid of clients. Like, that’s kind of your job.
Your job is to constantly be trying to get your clients better so that they don’t need a therapist anymore. Which is at odds with what I assume is the proposition in these conversations with venture capitalists, which is we just need help on the front end to get clients. And then we can spend, we’ll spend a little, a lot of marketing in the beginning, but then we won’t need to spend as much marketing.
Well, that’s not actually true. You’re always going to if that’s the customer acquisition costs, those customers are going to leave. That’s the point of therapy. And you’re going to need to spend more money to get more customers too. So I think that’s kind of a dynamic that I don’t understand, and I don’t know why all this money continues to go into these.
I think most of them are not even in the black yet. Because of the marketing spend, so it’s interesting to [00:12:00] see how that’s going to play out. I hope new solutions are going to pop up to address that. I think that it’s important. individual clinicians have access to all the referrals that they need. Because the demand is so high.
I would really appreciate it if marketers, these big companies, would stop viewing traditional therapy as their competitors. Traditional therapists are not your competitors.
Your competitors are stigma and shame and barriers like pricing and insurance. Those are your competitors. I don’t want to see another chart of comparing your platform to traditional therapy, like leave the traditional therapist alone. There’s more than enough for everyone. Go after these actual competitors that are keeping the market smaller than it needs to be.
Jenny: I will say also, like, I don’t know many traditional therapists that even have availability for new patients. So it definitely is not a situation if somebody is actively seeking [00:13:00] therapy, traditional therapists are like you said, likely not competition for that reason alone.
So Megan, it has been such an absolute joy. I think the point of involving clinicians early and often and thoroughly in marketing communication strategies in mental health is a very good one.
So thank you for being on today. I’m going to add your LinkedIn to the show notes. If anybody would like to continue the conversation with you offline!
Thank you friends. I’ll see you in a future episode.
Today Jenny welcomes her longtime friend and VP of Marketing at TCARE, Julia Pitlyk. They dive into Julia’s transition from the consumer packaged goods (CPG) industry to healthcare marketing, discussing the similarities, differences, and best practices that have emerged along the way.
Jenny and Julia reminisce about their early days working together and reflect on how their shared love for problem-solving and complexity led them to the healthcare industry. Julia shares her unique experiences in both the CPG and healthcare sectors, highlighting the valuable insights she gained from working on billion-dollar brands and driving consumer-driven campaigns.
She also emphasizes the need to consider the holistic manifestation of a brand throughout the patient journey, extending beyond visual elements to encompass every interaction. They also discuss the complexities of the healthcare industry, and developing a strong brand presence throughout the patient journey.
Connect with Julia:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jpitlyk/
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a privacy compliance program?
Book time with Jenny today.
Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn
Explore what Hedy and Hopp can do for you
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy – a Healthcare Marketing Podcast. My name is Jenny Bristow and I am your host. I am so excited to be joined today by my long, longtime friend Julia Pitlyk, who is the VP of Marketing at TCare. Welcome, Julia.
Julia: Hi. Happy to be here. Longtime friend, also former employee of yours.
Let’s not forget way back!
Jenny: true. It was like, 13 years ago. Long time ago. And it’s turned into a great friendship, so that’s right. Yes. It’s been so fun watching your career grow and continue to evolve. We had worked together previously at sort of an agency and then you left to go into the CPG world with a well known brand.
[00:01:00] After a while, you then pivoted and came into healthcare. So that’s quite a transition and I’m really excited to dig in with you and talk about the differences in the industries and maybe some best practices you’ve been able to pull over, or some, really big evolutions or differences that we can chat about.
So let’s get into it.
Julia: Yeah, that sounds great. I love that we both found our way into healthcare independently. I was thinking about that as I was preparing for this conversation. I feel like we just love problems to solve. We love complexity and bringing kind of clarity through it so it makes perfect sense that we would wind up doing marketing in healthcare where there are just such complex journeys and as everything from the journeys to the data analytics.
Always something to navigate, always a problem to solve.
Jenny: Well, we love helping people too. Right? We want our work to feel impactful, so I agree. Totally not surprised.
[00:02:00] So, let’s talk first about that transition. You were at that large, big packaged consumer goods organization for some time, and then whenever you made the pivot into healthcare, talk to me about some of your initial reactions and experiences with that change.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. So I spent about eight years in the consumer packaged goods industry. My experience there was really unique. I think I sort of got to see some of the best of both worlds. Working within the walls of a company, building, managing and operating billion dollar brands. But I was also more of that entrepreneur, so I was on a team, focused on innovation and building out new business models, really focusing on directing consumer pathways.
So I really got to see, what does it look like? What can I take from that experience where it’s so much rigor around brand design, consumer insights brand management, really having that [00:03:00] data driven business mindset when it comes to marketing and branding, but also that scrappy perspective – designing the journey’s, experimenting, testing by design.
So I was really grateful to have that pretty unique vantage point. Especially knowing that, coming from more startup backgrounds, being able to always preserve some of that scrappiness was really helpful and that was absolutely necessary in coming to healthcare especially.
The role that I came to after my time in CPG was designing direct-to-consumer experiences and campaigns for healthcare, because I think a lot of legacy companies and healthcare of course, depending on the nature of the vertical you’re in within the healthcare industry a consumer-driven approach is a new one.
So the organization that I went to was very B2B focused, had a typical kind of healthcare sales-based model, account-based model with a large end market and field sales force. And so as they were thinking about how [00:04:00] do we reached consumers with our message. That was a very new way of thinking and was very grateful to have had the experience that I had from the CPG side because we leaned really hard into journey mapping.
We wanted to know at every stage of the experience, not just where does the brand need to show up and where do we need to market, but so much deeper than that. What is that consumer thinking, feeling, doing? What’s their mindset at each of these nuanced stages and how do we really design and deploy a really good experience for them?
So I took that and just absolutely lifted and shifted, of course with some modification, but applying it to healthcare and found that was a really successful way to bring some of these consumer driven campaigns to life. And it’s interesting because I think one of the benefits of healthcare is it is so human driven.
When I was in the CPG side, we’re selling packaged goods, right? Like there’s emotional ties. That’s what all the branding is about is you know, that [00:05:00] emotional resonance. And we were very insight rich. We had tons of great consumer insights and tons of great empathy work. But it’s always a leap to go from something onto the shelf to really like, winning the heart of a consumer.
Brands do it well, we did it well. They do it every day. But when you go into something like healthcare, that’s such an inherently, there’s nothing more personal than a healthcare decision for you or for a loved one. So being able to come into a space where empathy and insights and kind of that emotional connection are, should be the norm, should be table stakes.
Was really exciting because it made the way that we could deploy messages at the right stage of the journey. Really rich and personalized.
Jenny: Oh, I love that. So when you began to apply that experience in the healthcare space, were there any unexpected hurdles or roadblocks that you had to overcome and really change your approach?
Or do you think that most of your prior experience was [00:06:00] applicable?
Julia: I would say most of it was, the core of, how do I think about designing marketing? I’ll say a campaign, but really a marketing experience or a consumer experience. Leaning into the insights first and foremost, really not listening to anybody but the user insights and, the feedback, the call recordings, things like that.
That’s where I start. That’s kind of where I build my gut, I like to say, very data driven. You wouldn’t have raised me any other way when I first started working for you. But so much of that, the qualitative stuff is, that forms insights too. To me, it’s all about forming the gut.
I think from a marketing standpoint, we’re really data driven, but the data’s never going to tell you what to do. It gives you, insight and direction, but you have to apply that. And some of that is, what I like to think of as like a really well educated gut that’s connected to your heart that’s connected to the mind. Right. It all has to work together. So that was all really applicable I think with healthcare the most.
The biggest gap, I think is more [00:07:00] of the, this maybe sounds a bit tactical, but more of the channels with which we can go to market. Where I would say the gap between marketing to a consumer and then them actually getting, the product, the good, the service, within consumer package goods, it’s commercials, it’s coupons, it’s anything. And then you go to the store and if distribution’s done well, then it’s on the shelf.
And you put it into cart and you buy it. Or you go on an e-com site and do the same thing. Depending on the business model, within healthcare, you may be marketing to a consumer, but there is a big chasm, a big gap that they have to jump from wanting the good, the product – the medicine, the test, whatever, to actually getting it ordered.
So there is a very the journey maps and the messaging and all of those artifacts get a lot more complex because you have a much bigger landscape and ecosystem of stakeholders to educate. You’ve gotta think about, okay, well we also have to make sure we’re educating the providers.
There’s the payer angle [00:08:00] too. When I started in healthcare, we were in the testing space. So you literally had to have a provider order a test. So that’s a whole other set of education and tasks and jobs to be done.
So I think that, there are some kind of pure play, more true direct to consumer healthcare products popping up, be it telemedicine services or direct to consumer tests or medications or things like that, which feels much more straightforward and I should say normal, not in a judgment light, which is normal, a normal user journey compared to the really fragmented one that can happen in healthcare.
Yeah, and I’m sure you run into that too with a lot of your work.
Jenny: Yeah, absolutely. Especially depending on the kind of care. So for example, like cancer is much different than promoting say, bariatrics, where it may be a decision that is proactively being made versus a decision that your health makes for you and then you have to find a solution.
So I think that’s definitely an excellent point.
Julia: Yeah, that’s a great point [00:09:00] too, when I think about the journeys and you said a health event, something happening to you. As marketers, we’re always thinking about what’s going to trigger the beginning of that journey.
And in healthcare sometimes, and oftentimes, unfortunately there’s a very very personal, very intense, sad, heavy trigger that happens. A diagnosis, okay. Of yourself or friend or family member, and that’s, very crudely from a marketing perspective, that is a clear entry point from a marketing standpoint.
That’s, it’s not nice, but you know what I mean, it’s a way in. But my goodness, again, that’s where it goes to the empathy, the insights, the messaging, the respect that you have to have, the first words out of your mouth to someone to speak is absolutely critical.
But yes. You’re exactly right. In terms of that journey. I remember doing some of my initial journey maps when I came into healthcare, and I was so used to going all the way from awareness, engagement, conversion. I mean, I had direct to consumer e-com store, so I’m used [00:10:00] to cart convert, reorder.
And one of the first journey maps I saw really sort of ended at this more of this…Consideration stage, right? Because that’s all we could get the patient to do was say, I’m aware of this product. I know it’s for me. I’ve considered it. I want to talk to my provider about it. And I remember thinking, wait what more can we do?
How else can we help bring this along? And truly, to your point, it’s about helping someone who has a need and helping them fulfill it. But I think was the biggest adjustment I had to make was that, I could not have my e-comm side of transactions all the way through, and some healthcare companies do, but that was very much an adjustment.
Jenny: I love it. Let me, let’s kind of slightly pivot – still talking about the overall patient journey. Let’s talk about the importance of a consistent brand showing up throughout that journey. I mean, I think [00:11:00] it’s really interesting when you think about legacy, large well-known brands compared to tech startups and smaller organizations that maybe don’t have that consumer recognition and are still offering something really phenomenal to patients, but they’re not super well known, they’re not something that’s top of mind. How can and should marketers be thinking about the brand and the ways that it shows up throughout that patient journey?
Julia: Oh, I love that question. To me, a brand is a promise kept. You don’t do it for you as the organization. It’s really the brand is designed for the people that you’re serving. And that’s one of the biggest takeaways from, my time in cpg Again, that’s in a more commoditized space. The brand is really all you got.
So you have so much time and investment in architecting that. And I think it’s important for me to clarify to [00:12:00] marketers, but also especially non marketers, that when we say brand, it’s not colors and typography. That’s a part of it. And I could spend an hour talking about the millions of dollars spent researching some of those things because it does, it does ladder up to something.
But for me, I remember, in my, even in my early days of brand management, just as much what you say when you answer the phone when someone calls in as it is the colors, the typography, all of it Yes, actually it’s so much more than that. Especially for a company that’s developing a brand. My biggest advice is to think about the brand as just how your company shows up to consumers in every touchpoint.
And you said that yourself, you know how you show up and don’t. Don’t think of it as just the visual aspects or, sort of over invest or over architect in that. Cause you think about it, an iconic brand like [00:13:00] Nike, that was a $35 swoosh logo. Right?
It’s all the heart and the meaning and the manifestation of that core. Go to work with every touchpoint, especially the ones that are often outside of typical marketing control and really understand how your business is coming to life.
So go to the call center, right? Look at those scripts. Look at the way that those are being navigated. I think those are some of the channels that are often not under the umbrella of marketing, but actually, especially from like a call center standpoint, is one of the very few places where your brand voice is actually talking directly to your customer.
I did a lot of work with that in my CPG side as well, because we would spend lots of time and money thinking about brand voice, but that whole world was not part of marketing. And wasn’t really [00:14:00] influenced by it. So to me it was, oh my goodness, we need to bring that all in.
The brand is about the consumer. That’s it. If your consumer can feel how your org is structured then you have not done your job well. As a marketer, as an organization, it should feel really seamless. So I think tactically it’s looking at that journey. Any good journey’s gonna have these channels sort of defined.
And then it’s going and really making sure that what’s manifesting in those touchpoints are exactly how you’d want your brand as a person to show up in the world.
Jenny: I love that and I spoke at a class with Northwestern two nights ago, and one of the students had such a great question specifically about telehealth, so we’re gonna pick a very specific subsection within healthcare.
And she asked me what the importance of branding was in the promotion of telehealth services. And so I used a real life example. At Hedy & Hopp, we work with a lot of different telehealth service [00:15:00] offerings. As far as our clients, and I’ll tell you, it is much easier and cheaper to get a telehealth patient for Ascension or some large brand that already has that patient relationship and that patient trust than a startup that is trying to break in into the field.
Even if clinically, their outcomes are wonderful and they are great, if they’re not known, it’s gonna take a lot more work and budget to be able to even have a third of the ability to sign a patient up online.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s, so when you look at something like telehealth, and I’ve had this experience too in my prior role of designing a telehealth experience with a third party provider.
I think it’s really important too, in my mind, I wanna say the words brand equity, right? Which doesn’t really mean much to a consumer, but to me it’s looking at where is there the strongest [00:16:00] brand equity, or I should say, To put it in better consumer words, recognition and trust from that consumer or patient.
And let that lead the way. So your example with Ascension is exactly right. There’s trust, there’s a relationship, there’s scale of the brand. And so the consumer then has, permission to bring someone else to the table, to literally like think about if you came over to my house and you had a friend with you because of the trust that I have with you, I’d feel fine letting that friend in my house compared to a mild acquaintance or even relative stranger wanting to bring someone else in my house.
Like, it’s just very different and that’s the way I like to think about marketing, be it whatever channel, especially digital. I think we kind of lose the fact that we’re just humans with hearts and minds and I always like to think of like, okay, what’s just a real human example of what we’re trying to do here?
And so that’s how my mind [00:17:00] works. Like, if you bring someone over to my house because of the trust I have with you, they can come to the party. And I think that’s exactly, especially with the proliferation of online care and telehealth and there’s definitely some scrutiny and skepticism around it, especially as you’re looking to perhaps targeting older audiences.
There are bad actors in certain situations and I’m glad the consumers have a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to their health. But yes, so I think in terms of if I’m a smaller company, a startup trying to bring in a telehealth partner tactically, I would really like to consider things like what would it look like to White label a service or just get the brand hierarchy done right?
Because you’re kind of just a bunch of acquaintance acquaintances showing up to a consumer’s house, and you’ve gotta respect that and you’ve gotta build trust. I’ve been in situations where a telehealth experience I designed, it was a provider referring a patient to my [00:18:00] organization and then we were referring them to Telemed and I kind of zoomed out on the creative.
I’m like, there are three logos, like to get it really clean and simple. Three logos, and this consumer maybe has 75% of a hundred percent of trust in one of them being their provider, and the rest are complete strangers. So how are we gonna do this in a way that’s actually gonna make them feel comfortable and that they know what’s going on, and kind of who’s on base in terms of providing them what kind of care?
And then back to my example of the journeys, like you’ve gotta also think about the service and fulfillment aspect of it. So who does the patient call and when, if they’re referred by Ascension to telehealth and they have a question or an issue, how do they know who to go to? And are the teams orchestrated and organized behind the scenes so that they’re not receiving a call from a patient saying, oh, sorry, that’s not us, you need to call Ascension instead.
Like, but that’s not great, right? So you’ve gotta really think about that [00:19:00] orchestration. Both from, I should say the consumer facing front end and the back end.
Jenny: Yeah. And the much more difficult thing, as we’ve already spoken about, is typically the patients coming from a place of fear, right?
If they’re seeking out telehealth, something’s probably wrong. And so, like you said, making it as easy and streamlined as possible is so important,
Julia: Exactly. That’s the promise that they’re thinking that they’re going to get from telehealth. Right. It’s easy, it’s streamlined, it’s not needing to leave the home.
It’s more access. Like what are the types of benefits that they think they’re getting that you better be sure that you at least deliver table stakes on, but definitely don’t make it in that negative in terms of making it more difficult, more complicated. Because you’re right, that actually just adds to the fear and the skepticism.
And if there’s a sense of urgency with what this patient needs to get from this. You best not get in the way of that as much as possible.
Jenny: Exactly. Well Julia, this was so much fun. It has been just a joy watching your career continue to [00:20:00] grow over the last decade plus. And I’m gonna link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes.
So if anybody would like to connect with you, please feel free. I’m sure you’d love to continue the conversation.
Julia: Yes, I could talk about this stuff all day, so please connect. I would love that.
Jenny: I love it. Perfect. Well, for all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in and we’ll see you on a future episode of We Are, Marketing Happy.
You can’t fully understand the evolution of something without knowing the history. This is where Jenny and her guest, Michele Szczypka, Interim VP of Marketing and Communications at SSM, begin today’s episode. Michele expresses the importance of understanding the industry’s past to comprehend the impact of changes in the present. She emphasizes the value of this perspective for new graduates and early-career professionals.
Jenny and Michele discuss how healthcare marketing Initially started as PR and image-building for hospitals, but has gradually transitioned into true marketing and branding, aided by the emergence of marketing technology (MarTech) in the past decade. They highlight the challenges faced by early adopters of MarTech in developing models for ROI to convince hospital executives of the need for increased budgets.
Michele also notes the evolution of CRM in healthcare marketing which from their inception grew to allow more sophisticated tracking and measurement of marketing efforts. The implementation of CRM systems necessitated collaboration with finance teams and the establishment of goals and ROI models for different service lines.
The conversation shifts to the current concerns regarding tracking methodologies in healthcare marketing due to HIPAA and FTC regulations. Michele identifies two
camps and how they are reacting and/or pivoting. She and Jenny know that it boils down to the importance of respecting privacy and finding solutions that balance progress and compliance with guidelines.
Connect with Michele on LinkedIn
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a privacy compliance program?
Book time with Jenny today.
Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn
Explore what Hedy and Hopp can do for you
Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy, a healthcare marketing podcast.
I am super excited to have Michele Szczypka. She is currently the interim Vice President of Marketing and Communications at SSM, but she previously held the role of Chief Marketing Officer at Trinity Health for 18 years.
So welcome, Michele. Thank you for joining us.
Michele: Yes, thank you. I’m really excited to be here too, and it’s so nice to see you, Jenny.
Jenny: Thank you. So this is one of my favorite kinds of episodes. I’m really looking forward to digging into the history of measurement in the marketing world, specifically within healthcare.
I know whenever I graduated college and first started getting involved in healthcare, I knew what was happening at that time, but it was really difficult for me to understand what had happened 5, 10, 15 [00:01:00] years before I personally entered the industry. And I think having that perspective is really helpful for new graduates or for people, let’s say in the first five years of their marketing career because then they can more effectively understand how something that may seem like a small change can actually have rippling effects within our industry. So I’m looking forward to digging in.
Michele: Sounds good.
Jenny: Awesome. So let’s talk first about your role at Trinity. So it overlapped multiple transformative periods within healthcare and communications.
So let’s talk about that a little bit. Let’s talk about your experience.
Michele: Yeah, what you had said in the very beginning about people coming in and being new, also people coming from outside the industry have no historical perspective on how healthcare marketing strategies have evolved, especially now that digital has really exploded.
It just didn’t exist when we first started this work. Healthcare [00:02:00] marketing started out really, quite frankly, maybe over 20, 25 years ago. We were PR groups, trying to sort of tell this good story of what’s happening at the hospital, trying to develop just image and awareness.
And then we’ve sort of over time transitioned into true marketing, branding engines and also adding on a MarTech stack, which didn’t exist. I mean, as we all know, the MarTech stack has really come out in the last 10 to 15 years. So those that were early adopters really didn’t have models for ROI.
And really were trying to develop those to build the budget, to convince them, the hospital executives and CFO that, look, we need more money so that we can, really build out new strategies.
Jenny: And on that, let’s talk about the evolution of ROI specifically, because generally the justification of additional budget happens as a result of measurement and showing that it’s working.
So tell me a little [00:03:00] bit about what measurement was like when you started in your healthcare marketing career, and then what big leaps you have seen and have made over those years.
Michele: So, boy, there are so many different things that took place in terms of measurement.
We were desperately looking for measurement. What is soft ROI? What’s hard ROI? The soft ROI was really around, we did an advertising campaign and we would start to see the volumes creep up. And we could anecdotally say, yeah, look at what’s happening with our campaigns.
We put a bunch of billboards out, we did some radio and television advertising and we got all kinds of calls and that was great, right? And we believe that was because of our advertising. But over time, really trying to find ways to build out true ROI. Looking at what areas in the organization were great revenue opportunities, and then building out nurturing cycles. A sales sort of cycle, which didn’t exist before[00:04:00] for healthcare marketing.
How do you build that out? So we did start to turn to look into the new age of digital marketing and turning to partners that could help us determine the best practices that were out there and pioneer new models.
Jenny: One of the things as we were kind of chatting, prepping about this episode is chatting about the evolution of CRM and your work at previous organizations. Talk to me a little bit about what it was like when CRMs first came on the scene in the healthcare marketing space and how that changed the work.
Michele: It really did change the work, Jenny. I mean, CRM just didn’t exist. I mean, there were some database tools to keep track of how certain customers were interacting with us. And especially when it came to physician relationship management, like looking at the referrals that came in, but [00:05:00] not true, like looking at our customer base and our patients and how they interact with us.
And over time we said, we really need to be more sophisticated. So when we started, we were at meetings and you would talk with people about their new CRM tools.
Well, we did have this one group that had some ideas about how to do it and we decided we wanted to pioneer some of the work and brought in a partner. And they’re some other company today. But they were really building out new ways of interacting through CRM and being able to look at a little bit of the patient journey, but really starting to dig into when we did a campaign, were we able to really bring in some return on our investment?
One of the things I think I told you about was our CFO and our finance team. Really, it took a while to convince them that this was gonna work and to invest the expense to [00:06:00] in this type of tool. So then there needs to be, beyond the expense, there needs to be additional revenue, and we have to agree on what that model looked like in terms of what money might already be coming in because we don’t just advertise, but we might also have a new business strategy or even a new technology.
Right? And then what is actually coming in because of our campaigns. It was very exciting. It was very challenging, and it really was the beginning of this work that was not that long ago. We’re still early on in this journey and there’s so much more that’s happening now as we’ve, sort of explored with you guys looking at how to really do our patient journey. That’s something that’s happening in the patient experience world, right? I mean, that’s important to us too. But that customer journey, what is the consumer journey from the minute they look at your front door to what they, which is your website or other digital touchpoints to when they’re interacting with your [00:07:00] organization and starting to request information, starting to actually request an appointment or talk to your call centers.
What’s that journey like for them and where do we have gaps in how we interact with them?
Jenny: Yeah, it one of the things that whenever I meet with young marketers entering the healthcare space, one of the things I always tell them is, become best friends with the CFO.
You need to understand how they see and value marketing’s role within the organization so that way you can speak their language. So, as you were able to develop larger budgets to be able to implement CRMs, and you were able to really begin seeing and justifying and understanding the actual lift.
How did that change marketing departments? How did that change the way teams were built or the way that you communicated with, within the organization or with other leadership team members?
Michele: [00:08:00] So, when we started to implement all these CRM tools and some of the activities around that, we would predict a certain amount of money that might come in through a campaign. Obviously, that’s very difficult to do, but we certainly had goals and that was always by service line.
So those people that are, familiar with our sector service line is sort of like a product line, right? And so, if we put out a cancer campaign we knew there’s a longer journey for people to actually get into the system, it’s more around awareness, but there certainly would be a journey we’d have to agree on, what the length of period of time before we’re gonna see a return on an investment.
It’s different than a campaign that you’re talking about for bariatrics. We found that was one of the best ways of measuring more rapidly. People are dealing with weight issues. And they’re making decisions pretty rapidly over that. So we would see return on that investment much more rapidly than we would a different [00:09:00] type of service line.
And orthopedics, for example, also an opportunity for a higher or quicker turnaround. And when we’d make these goals, and we would tell our CFO, or our finance teams who also validated the model that we put together for their ROI, we worked with them directly. And then when we said, yeah, this is what we’re gonna test, this is what we’re gonna believe in.
And then when they started seeing the value, the investment either, continued or increased.
Jenny: Which is that’s phenomenal. Very helpful perspective I think. The big thing that’s happening right now that is on top of mind for every healthcare marketer is all of the things happening related to HIPAA and FTC and all of the tracking methodologies that we’ve all become so comfortable with having to change. We’ve really seen two camps. We’ve seen one camp where even super large systems are just pulling all tracking. They’re so afraid about doing the wrong thing, they’re just going to do [00:10:00] nothing.
And so we’re stepping back 20 years. And then on the other side, we’re seeing people actually implement correct tracking to be able to continue measuring their campaigns appropriately. So I would love your perspective on what you’re seeing at the leadership level throughout the country with your large network, how are people taking all of these changes and evolutions in healthcare marketing in stride?
Michele: Yeah, you kind of nailed it. There’s, there probably are two camps and there’s really very few things happening in between. I think there’s that anxiety about, wanting to really be sure that, we’re following the guidelines and making sure that we are protecting privacy.
And that’s so, so important. I don’t think there’s anyone that’s not concerned with that across the board with healthcare. So, we’ve made so many strides in what we can do in the marketing space, but we wanna be sure that we really honor and respect all of the issues that are out there.
So I think that what my personal philosophy and what [00:11:00] a lot of people that I’ve talked to really wanna do is be sure that you’re committed to progress. I mean, honestly, there’s a way to solve for anything, right? I mean, right now there’s AI, AI is coming out and it’s all over the place.
And AI is so exciting. There’s so much opportunity with it. And there’s some people that are afraid of it because also it comes along with some issues that you have to be sure that you’re avoiding. And I think marketers. We need insights. We need technology. We need tools to help reach people in better ways than ever.
And for us, we’re selling a product nobody wants, right? I mean, nobody wants to have healthcare issues, but do they wanna have good health? Do they wanna deal with health issues?
And you wanna know that you’re going to a trusted provider and trust is everything. Right? So some of the tools that have had to come offline, well, they’re, being retooled, if you will, to be secure. There are other avenues that perhaps you can pursue you. I don’t think you should [00:12:00] abandon this all together. This is my personal belief. I think that progress is something that is so important.
And if you pause, I mean you should be thoughtful and pause where there’s risk. But you should also think about, there’s always solution. There are always ways, and so pursuing that work and that passion for progress is important.
Jenny: I love that. And that is definitely the way that we’re all gonna continue having a positive impact on patients’ ability to access care.
So yeah. Thank you so much, Michele. This was such a wonderful episode. I hope for all of the folks that are either new to healthcare marketing as an industry or just starting their careers, that this was some helpful perspective. And thank you for being a guest.
Michele: Thank you. It was great talking with you.
We are thrilled to announce that our podcast, We Are, Marketing Happy was named the 2023 Healthcare Agency podcast of the year!
Thank you Medigy and HITMC!
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After Jenny’s two-part series on the new HHS bulletin and movement from the FTC from two experts, she is recapping and giving a broad overview emphasizing the most essential parts you need to know.
She discusses what compliance used to mean, what you could be doing unknowingly that is considered sharing data, and the reasoning around the fines levied at GoodRx and Better Health.
She digs into what shifts organizations can make to their analytics and marketing to become compliant but continue marketing campaigns to service prospective patients.
Finally, the episode wraps up by explaining the three-part program that Hedy & Hopp is using to help healthcare companies across the United States become more confident in their marketing and technical work with these shifting rules.
Interested in working with Hedy & Hopp on a privacy compliance program?
Book time with Jenny today.
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Jenny: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy, a healthcare marketing podcast.
I’m Jenny Bristow, and I’m the CEO of Hedy and Hopp, a healthcare marketing agency. We’re a full service agency, but we’re really nerdy and great at marketing and analytics. Our history as an agency has been always be really analytics focused, helping our clients be compliant.
But as many of you know, the FTC and HIPAA goalposts have recently moved, and so we’ve done a two-part series – an attorney’s point of view and a marketer’s point of view on all of the recent shifts.
So today I just wanted to do a quick 101. If you only have five minutes (let’s hope I can keep it to five minutes becuase I’m quite verbose) but if you only have five minutes to understand what’s going on and why people are so concerned right now, let this be the five minutes that can help educate you.
So I’m gonna walk through a couple of things. First of all, let’s talk about what being [00:01:00] compliant used to mean. My agency has been around for almost eight years, and we’ve always been helping healthcare organizations become what at that point, was believed to be HIPAA compliant, following all of the rules and guidelines set forth with HIPAA.
What did that mean? Well, we worked with an attorney and they helped create guidelines, again, based off of the interpretation of what HIPAA was trying to say through the lens of digital marketing. Most of what internal legal teams were focused on were around the clinical settings, not so much around marketing.
Many marketing teams we began working with eight years ago had never chatted with their internal legal teams about the things they were doing and how to be compliant. So some things that we began doing right off the bat and the things we’ve been doing with our clients up until now:
Number one – Not collecting or obfuscating the IP address whenever possible. So with Google Analytics, for example, turning it where it does not collect the IP address.
Number two – [00:02:00] not doing super specific retargeting. If an organization wanted to do retargeting, let’s say for example, a local children’s hospital wanted to do it, you could do retargeting at a brand level, but not specific to the pages of the site that they visited.
So not specifically around pediatric cancer, pediatric eye care, etc. It’d have to be at that brand level.
Our organization also made sure not to capture or touch PHI. Every team member goes through HIPAA training to be able to understand HIPAA as well as identify PHI as we’re doing marketing campaigns for our clients.
And then we also always avoided signing BAAs because again, if we purposefully touching or collecting PHI, our organization didn’t need to do that.
So what has changed? Two things happened. We’re gonna break it into the FTC and then we’re gonna break it into the HIPAA side.
So FTC is really going after those healthcare adjacent organizations, so not necessarily [00:03:00] organizations that have to comply with HIPAA, but organizations that are healthcare adjacent.
With this tech boom, in the healthcare space, there are tons of companies popping up that are dealing with patients, yet are not covered entities. So FTC is specifically going after folks because they are selling data to third parties without consent.
Now, hard stop.
Many organizations do not realize they are selling data to third parties. The way that this is being interpreted by the FTC is if a Meta pixel is on your website and you’re sharing your patient’s information or user’s information with Meta/Facebook in order to understand conversions for ads, that is consideration legally, that is considered selling the data in exchange for getting something in return, which is that conversion data.
So, they also believe that disclosing that you’re selling the data [00:04:00] to meta in exchange for conversion data, the average consumer would not agree to that. So you can’t slap it onto your new privacy policy saying that, hey, by the way, we’re giving your information to Meta thanks, hit okay. You can’t just add it on there and think that you’re going to be okay.
So that is what is behind both the BetterHealth and the GoodRx fines. So both of them, and you can go online and you can read all of the language. The FTC basically said, hey guys, you sold your customer’s information to Meta.
And both GoodRx and Better Health said we believed we were following marketing best practices. Everybody does this. It was considered okay, but fine. We’ll pay a fine.
I actually will second that. Everybody in the industry believed this was okay. So this is a, a goalpost that has been moved. and so it’s really helpful to understand the history behind that. So at this point, third party pixels of any kind should not be on a healthcare website.
That could [00:05:00] include tools like Lucky Orange, or CrazyEgg or any user testing tools, any form tracking technologies, any advertiser pixels. None of those should be on your website as a result of these FTC fines. Now let’s talk about HIPAA. So OCR and HHS submitted a bulletin in December, not a new law, a bulletin, which is their interpretation of the law, and a little bit of clarification that did a couple of really important key things.
First, it defined an IP address as PHI. It was very vague before and many attorneys that I talked to said, well, if you wanna be conservative, let’s say an IP address is PHI. So that’s what we had always done. But the average marketer and what HIPAA had said before did not say the IP address was PHI.
What they also said is that even if you tell a tool not to collect an IP address, if it CAN collect an IP address, like if the tool has the [00:06:00] ability to do that, then you’re not compliant. So all of my marketer friends out there that are currently using Googled Analytics or Google Analytics along with Google Tag Manager and have it set up not to collect IP addresses, guess what?
You are not compliant with this new bulletin tin and you are consider having a data breach.
Huge concerns. 99% of the marketers I know in the healthcare space are all using Google Analytics and Google Analytics is not compliant with this new bulletin. The other thing that they clarified is the importance of having a business associate agreement in place with any tech vendor that can see the IP address or device ID or any other individually identifying information, which again, is much more specific in this bulletin.
So Google’s never gonna sign a BAA. Meta is never gonna sign a BAA. And kind of to their credit, if they know that they can’t properly keep data safe with their tech stacks, then good for them, you know, for not just signing one or, [00:07:00] you know, rushing to create a new business unit to serve this.
So, How can companies be compliant?
How can marketers in healthcare actually be successful with these new guidances from the FTC and with HIPAA? One more thing that I wanna point out is GDPR and state level privacy legislation. So GDPR in general is a European law does not apply to the United States, but the structure of GDPR is really similar to the state level legislation that we’re seeing in California and other states that are proactively pushing state level privacy legislation.
So a lot of our clients are choosing to go ahead and become GDPR compliant, and then just monitor state level legislation. You have to have a certain percentage of your traffic within a state when a state passes state level legislation before you have to be concerned about it. So, it exists and that’s another data and privacy concern.
But again, we’re really gonna focus on FTC and HIPAA [00:08:00] when we’re talking about how to become compliant with these next couple of minutes. So you really have three options to become compliant.
Number one – a new analytics tool. Get away from Google Analytics.
Work with an analytics tool that’s willing to sign a business associate agreement. It either can be self hosed. You host it yourself on your own server or they can host it, but again, you can capture IP address and continue to track your conversions as long as you have a BAA with that company that’s willing to make reassurances to you that they will keep that customer and patient data safe.
So new analytics, platform.
Number two – server side tag manager. So this is a great easy solution if you’re already having a lot of dashboards or downstream workflows that feed off of Google Analytics. A lot of folks had just invested a lot of money to move over GA4, so to move over to another tool, is just emotionally exhausting for a lot of us to think about. With the server side tag management[00:09:00] solution, you can actually set up Google Tag Manager as a server side solution, which is really great. However, again, you have to have the IT infrastructure internally to be able to manage that. Because that’s not something Google manages. You have to have that server and you have to have a BAA with that server company in order to make that happen.
Number three- you can do, I’ll describe it first, a cloud based tag manager/buffer. So the term they’re using is a CDP – a customer data platform.
But it’s easier to imagine it as like, here’s your website, here’s Google Analytics, and it’s sort of like a little barrier that goes in between. So all the information you’re tracking on your website goes through this barrier, or CDP, and gets filtered and cleaned out, and you monitor and pull what data you don’t want to go into the analytics tools and then you can continue using Google Analytics.
Again. This middle company will sign a BAA with you. It will really allow you to continue using a lot of your tech stack and continue tracking those [00:10:00] conversions. So, there’s a couple of different things.
So we, Hedy & Hopp, we have actually partnered with an attorney, his name is Drew Westbrook.
He was on the episode two weeks ago where we were talking about his perspective on the shifts, and we’ve partnered with him to create this three part process where we do an audit, educate, and recommendations for our clients.
So if you are stuck in a point where your tech team and your marketing team and your legal team are kind of fighting and your legal wants you to remove all your tags and marketing wants to keep doing their work, and you need to come up with a new analytics and marketing strategy, call us!
We have become experts in this really quickly and have just immersed ourselves in all of the legalities and the technical solutions. We’re helping folks across the country with this.
So it’s a three part solution. First audit, you look at every single thing you’re doing from an analytics, marketing and CRM database perspective.
So where and how are you talking to prospective patients online? [00:11:00] Wherever that is, we’ll include it in our audit and we’ll flag all the areas of concern.
Next is educate. On the educate side, we’re gonna tell you why those things are of concern, why you can’t do them anymore, or how we may need to change them.
And we’re also gonna Educate you about the legalities. We have a risk tier model that we’re using to help people kind of figure out where within that sliding scale they wanna be. Do they want a gold star from OCR or are they okay kind of being in the middle? Maybe they feel their organization isn’t really high risk so they’re okay being a little bit riskier in their setup and maybe using some current processes they’re using now without overhauling everything.
Anyway, we work with them, figure out where they wanna be on that sliding scale, and then create a full recommendations deliverable that then walks through and says, here’s all of the things you need to change with your analytics. Here’s all the marketing tactics you either no longer can do, or how you can do them differently. Here’s how you can track your conversions. Using this new setup so you don’t lose that [00:12:00] information you need so desperately in order to do your job.
We absolutely love this work, and are having so much fun because again, at Hedy and Hopp, we’re a full service marketing agency and our passion is improving patients access to care.
So it pained us watching all of these healthcare organizations have a knee-jerk reaction and just strip all of their analytics off of their website and stop all of their marketing. Because what that means is when that scared patient go to the to Google to be able to find a provider, they’re not gonna be able to find you.
And that for us is really a worst case scenario. So we’d love to be your partner to help make sure your marketing continue and that your legal team feels really comfortable with our recommendations and they understand why we believe they’re compliant, or they are compliant with all of the new and changing landscape.
And then bonus. If you work with us on this program, we will continue to educate you, and inform you as case [00:13:00] law is defined and as the goalposts continue to shift.
Because again, this is not a once and done conversation, it’s gonna continue changing over the next couple of years. So all of our clients get that added benefit of our education and that existing relationship.
So again, give us a call if you’re struggling with this, we’d love to help you. Again, we’re Hedy & Hopp, a full service woman owned, independent agency.
We hope to see you again on next week’s episode. Thanks.
Is your team scrambling trying to figure out how to make your marketing analytics setup HIPAA-compliant with the new bulletin? Yep, everyone else is too.
Today, Mark Brandes, Hedy & Hopp’s Director of Analytics and Decision Science joins the podcast to talk about the huge impact this bulletin from OCR has on healthcare marketers (as well as the FTC’s ruling against GoodRX).
Mark talks about tools and processes that were considered best practices prior to the OCR bulletin and how our approach to HIPAA-compliant marketing has changed. He talks about the reason why third-party marketing pixels are causing so much concern and are difficult to control.
Jenny and Mark wrap up the episode by talking about the three-step process Hedy & Hopp are using to help clients become HIPAA-compliant – Audit, Educate, and Recommend. We’re working as a middle ground between marketing and legal teams, making sure both groups get what they need! Listen in to learn more.
This (episode 17) is part two of a two-part series (part 1 is available here)
Jenny: Hi, friends. Welcome to today’s episode of We Are, Marketing Happy, a Healthcare Marketing Podcast. I am thrilled today to welcome one of Hedy & Hopp’s own team members, Mark Brandes. He is our Director of Analytics and Decision Science, and this is part two of a two-part conversation about the crazy bulletin that is shaking up analytics in the healthcare marketing space.
Last week we chatted with Drew, an attorney that specializes in digital health, and has a very deep understanding of HIPAA and the implications of the bulletin. And this week we’re gonna be talking with Mark about real world [00:01:00] implications. How are marketers responding and, what changes and shifts are we seeing today and plan to see over the next coming months. So welcome Mark. Happy to have you.
Mark: Thanks, Jenny. Glad to be on.
Jenny: So you’ve been in analytics for a long time. and I say that with love, not calling you old, but I, very much appreciate the perspective of people that have been in marketing analytics for a decade because then you really have seen the shifts over time.
But specifically, let’s say over the last couple of years, what are some standard things that we see when we begin working with a healthcare system or a healthcare provider? Really any covered entities that we work with. What are some standard things that you have seen, up until now that they’ve been using from an analytics perspective?
Mark: Yeah. So over the past few years, things have definitely shifted on us. I think the first big domino was probably when [00:02:00] GDPR hit. There was already talk about privacy and patient confidentiality. Before that, when GDPR hit over in the EU, that’s when really people started to really take it seriously that, hey, there’s something going on with this privacy stuff and we need to be careful of what we do.
And so in the states here, it wasn’t our law, so it doesn’t necessarily affect us, but there still was the ripple effect of, well, we should be thinking about this too. And a lot of places already started to proactively kind of take some of those steps, putting up some cookie banners, asking people for consent before they go on the website, letting them know how the cookies are being used.
Some of that already was changing, which was a good step. And then you had some other litigation that, or not litigation, I’m sorry, some other legislation that came in like the CPPA in California. Then there’s a few others that are, in the process of getting put into law now across several different states.
And so all of those are gonna have very similar kind of things where you’re gonna need consumer consent, you’re gonna have [00:03:00] to let people know what you’re doing with their data and their information.
Jenny: So that was an excellent overview. Thank you.
So in general, I will say that if you think about all of the covered entities that we work with across the country, regardless of size, we work with some of the largest hospital systems in the country, all the way down to single or perhaps multilocation, groups.
Almost all of them are using Google Analytics. Almost all of them are using Google Tag Manager. A lot of them are using call tracking software. I mean, one of the things that we all believed to be appropriate – we had received a legal opinion that we were using to implement according to the perceived HIPAA best practices – was that if you obfuscate or do not allow the tool to collect the IP address, that would be considered compliant.
With HIPAA’s new guidance and this bulletin, that’s not the case anymore. And so can you walk through a little bit what that implication is as far as how the [00:04:00] tools are leveraged or why that’s gonna be very difficult to continue using something like Google Analytics?
Mark: Yeah, definitely that OCR guidance that just came out was definitely the next seismic shift for us in the digital marketing landscape.
One of the big things they said was really, it was even about passing personal health information. So not only identifiable stuff, but just passing health information seem to be a HIPAA violation based on this guidance. So one of the things that we’ve really focused on was, on some of our clients’ websites even a page that talks about a specific ailment or a specific diagnosis, trackinga page view could be seen as a HIPAA violation now based on this guidance. and so that’s a really interesting shift. Before now it was kind of common to just, you put the page view tag on the website across all the pages so you can track them all and see how people are looking at them, what the volume is.
And now, you’re probably gonna have to be a little more careful about what pages you’re putting on these. It’s specifically called out things like login pages, anything, [00:05:00] after a login. So anything after a user’s been authenticated. Those definitely seem to be off limits at this point. But even some of the non authenticated pages, like I mentioned, you’re gonna have to be careful where you’re putting stuff.
So certain forms that get submitted if they’re on a certain page, even if you’re not collecting what’s on those forms, like what’s in them, the fact that they were put on that page, would indicate that the user was interested in that information and therefore that could be seen as, some PHI that you’re providing that other software.
So that’s one of the big shifts that’s happened. And I think the biggest thing is it came kind of outta nowhere. It was kind of a surprise to us. There was legislation that we were seeing moving through the system, and we were watching it and seeing what the impact was and we could prepare for it.
Because HIPAA was already in place and this guidance has just kind of adjusted how we look at that and what it applies to. I think everybody was taken by surprise a little bit. So I think there’s been a lot of scrambling. So some of the softwares that we’ve been really comfortable with, like Google Analytics [00:06:00] software, has been comfortable with like Google Tag Manager or even some CRM tools, right?
Or some of our platforms that we use, Facebook, Google Ads, Twitter, things like that. Those pieces of software that we were kind of comfortable using, passing data to them, using that to optimize our own campaigns. A lot of that has become a little hazy now about what we can and can’t do.
Jenny: Yeah, let’s talk about third party pixels, because we saw the FTC leveraged a huge fine against GoodRx, who is not a covered entity, by the way, but they are still in the healthcare space.
So it again, calls out the importance of paying attention to the safety and concern of patient data, regardless if you’re a covered entity or not. But they got in trouble for having meta pixels on their website. And they actually, in the settlement of it, said that they believed still that they were willing to pay the fine, but they still believed they were following marketing best practices by having those pixels on.
Jenny: Talk to me a little bit about how third party pixels work. Like if you’re [00:07:00] explaining it to a super non-technical person, which I think is one of the big difficulties that marketers have when working with their internal legal teams is explaining how pixels work. So give that to us a little bit, if you don’t mind.
Mark: Yeah, definitely that the GoodRx one in particular was quite interesting to me. Because if you were to read what GoodRx’s response was to that, it sounded like any company you could pick across the states, that’s exactly what they would be saying as well, right? Like, we did this was best practice, we didn’t do anything out of the normal.
It’s just all of a sudden you’re telling us it isn’t okay to do that anymore. So, it was really interesting seeing that. What’s tough is that if you look at the way, I can’t remember what the name, what’s the name of this? The entity, not the OCR?
Jenny: The FTC.
Yeah.
Mark: FTC. Yeah. So if you look at what came across and what they said was that GoodRx had shared all this private information. They’ve done all this and what’s tough is that it’s tough to find out where’s the truth in that, [00:08:00] because I don’t think GoodRx was intending to do that, at least based on their response.
But because of the way some of these pixels work, they almost feel like black boxes, so to speak. You put that pixel on and your intention is that you’re sharing, hey, this random user clicked on my ad. They did my conversion. That’s great. Let Facebook know that, or let Google ads know that so that Google Ads can then optimize your campaigns.
But what’s interesting is when you actually think about, well, what does that optimization means, typically it means, well, that person did it, so I’m gonna find more people like that. And in order to do that, then the service has to know something about those people, about what they’ve been doing, what sites they’ve been on, who they are.
And so once you start thinking about kind of the mechanics that go into that, it’s like, oh, I guess they are providing some information. And again, I think most places are doing that with the intention of just, I wanna make sure that I get to the people that want my [00:09:00] stuff. I don’t wanna just be spraying it out and spamming people.
Mark: I want to get to the people I that really need it. I think about a place like an addiction treatment service or something like that. Sure, you’re trying to send out some information, some marketing to let people know, hey, this service is out there. If you’re struggling, we’re here to help you, but without the kind of data that you need to really target in on people that may be struggling, people that may be needing help with that, you could end up spending, sending that message to a bunch of people.
And a lot of those places, especially some of these small healthcare entities, don’t really have the budget to just spray it out to everyone. Right. it’s not the Mad Men days where we can just kind of have huge unlimited budgets.
So really it was more about us trying to focus in on the people that really need our help. It wasn’t anything nefarious necessarily, but what happened and what we realized was that Facebook could take that innocuous information that we figured and they can turn that into something worse because of what they’re doing on their end.
Mark: And so then unfortunately through that process we have to realize, oh, well maybe we can’t share [00:10:00] this. Maybe we can’t share that. And I think that’s where a lot of this is coming from. Some work has been done. What’s tough is that, like I mentioned, those pixels are really black boxes.
Sometimes it’s just this little tiny one by one pixel that gets sent. But because you open that window, it has access to a lot of other things. What your browser stuff is, the history of your browser. Well, not history. I’m sorry.
Jenny: If you’re logged into the browser, it would have a lot of information.
Mark: If you’re like logged into Chrome, then it has all of that history that could be tied to it. Like for Google. Yeah, exactly. What your settings are, those kinds of things. Yeah. We would have access to that kind of stuff.
And so because of that, even opening that window, there is some issues there and some of that is because we have to go through browsers and so because we’re using those browsers, there are some ways around that. Some companies are coming up with APIs where we can pass stuff through APIs instead.
Mark: So we’re kind of bypassing the browser, but that still doesn’t get around the fact that [00:11:00] we’re still providing information to that third party about that user. so there’s all this gray area and what’s tough is we really need some of these software companies to actually help us out. Their best interest is making money for their company, and data is huge business right now.
And so it’s kind of not in their best interest to help us kind of protect those users. Now we have seen some companies trying to help us with that. Recently I heard that LinkedIn is trying to make some updates about their group policy, who they share their ads with, stuff like that.
Mark: So I think, I’m hoping that some companies start to come around and help us out with this. But some of these companies are so big that I don’t think that’s one of their priorities. So then unfortunately that onus shifts to the individual users who are setting this stuff up. And so we have to just figure out how to protect ourselves when we can’t rely on those companies to actually protect us.
Jenny: Yeah, that’s such a great point. And I think it’s interesting too, like we Google so large, but I [00:12:00] think their are days of being the forefront runner in innovation are behind them. So expecting them to respond, as quickly as smaller companies can, to be able to capitalize on this opportunity to begin billing a lot of healthcare organizations that have previously been using their services at no cost, it may take a lot longer for them to respond than, it would have a few years ago.
So, one of the things I’ve been really proud about at Hedy & Hopp is the way that we’ve been responding to this. So, we like to say Pivot with Positivity because you never know what’s gonna happen next in healthcare marketing.
But we partnered with Drew Westbrook to be our legal counsel and we’ve developed three tiers of risk, and a great three step process that allows our clients to work with us to really bridge the gap between their internal legal teams and what the marketing team wants to do.
The biggest thing that we hear from people is a general frustration, becuase legal doesn’t wanna be bad guys, right?
Jenny: They don’t wanna come in and say, stop all marketing that you’re doing. But they also need to make sure that they’re [00:13:00] compliant and protecting their organization. And so there’s typically this really big gap within organizations of what legal understands as far as what marketing is doing and what marketing understands as far as what legal’s trying to accomplish.
So with this three step process, we’ve really been able to bridge that gap successfully over the last couple of months since this bulletin came out, and we are really excited to help more organizations do it.
So it’s a three step process. The first step is audit. We go in and do a full documentation around all of the analytics tools, marketing tactics, CRM databases, anywhere perspective patients are touched or engaged with – all of that’s documented.
We then educate our clients about the three tiers of risks and help their legal team decide where they feel comfortable being within that three tier setup. And then we do a formal recommendations according to their chosen level of risk, based off of the implementation that we recommend and changes to their marketing tactics based off that chosen level of risk.
So I’m really [00:14:00] excited about what we’re doing right now, but can you explain a little bit about those three level or those three tiers of risk? Like why would one organization maybe choose one, whereas another organization might feel comfortable choosing another one?
Mark: Yeah, definitely. And, I will start off with that audit you talked about.
So that’s a really big one. I think one thing people don’t understand is there are stuff where your website, you may think that it’s not, but it’s passing PHI. That audit will really help you understand that maybe there’s things where people could have a login page or they could have a form submission.
And while you’re not grabbing anything from those forms, there are times where your website is designed that on the next page it passes stuff through the url and like we’ve mentioned, usually we set up page view tags to just grab all page views. So then when that stuff gets put in the url it’s not a good setup. We had this happen with a client not too long ago.
Their site was designed, the stuff got put into the url, so they were capturing actual email addresses and [00:15:00] sending them to Google Analytics without meaning to it all. And so though the audit will catch those kinds of things, and I think that’s really helpful. I think then what that leads into is the tiers you talked about.
Because once we kind of know some of those things, some of those issues you might be having, we can really determine whether you’re kind of high risk, whether you’re low risk. And that’s really what we’re looking for. So for example, in the audit, we may find that you have a lot of content on your site that’s very specific.
It talks about specific diagnoses or specific ailments. And so because of that, we would realize, oh, that may be a little more high risk. We may want to be concerned about passing that and stuff to Google Analytics. And so that’s something we can then bring to those tiers to kind of understand, okay, we might put you guys in this kind of higher risk tier because of all that content, but we may find sites that are a little more, generic, not in a bad way, but more that they’re talking about different plans you can sign up to or some [00:16:00] different information that will be in their newsletter.
So here’s the types of stuff we give you. Those kinds of things and those pages we believe wouldn’t actually cause any issues. So then that can be kind of a low risk. So it’s us looking through that site, looking through your kind of digital properties to understand where those things are.
And after talking to Drew, using his best judgment on kind of where would that fit.
So if you have pages that are about a lot of specific ailments or diagnoses or, diseases, whatever, that could be seen as that [00:17:00] PHI that we discussed, so then we could kind of put you into that more high risk kind of a bucket. Whereas if you have a more general site, speaking about, general information, so here’s stuff that we can send to your newsletter, stuff that you’d get on a monthly basis, like that kind of general stuff is not going to be seen as bad.
Are you talking about your different plans you have available? Different features or services for different things? None of that is gonna be seen as, as PHI. So then we can put that kind of stuff in low risk. So depending on what kind of site you have, then we can kind of understand where we should go, where we should not.
The other part of this is you mentioned legal. And so that’s an interesting conversation where there’s going to be a lot of gray area, some room for kind of interpretation, so to speak. I think we’re gonna find that some companies are gonna feel like, oh, we’ve gotta shut this down.
Mark: We can’t do any of this. And then we’re gonna have other companies that are gonna say, well, we’re okay doing this. We’re okay doing that because of how we’re [00:18:00] structured in the way that we work. Really we’ve kind of laid that out so that we give kind of an impression of here’s where we think your risk tolerance would lie.
We’ll also speak to your legal team or to your, leadership and have them understand, well, here’s where we feel like our risk tolerance is, and finding a nice balance there. So what we’d find is on a, high risk tier, or a low risk tolerance, however you wanna put it.
We’d find that like, you’re probably going to not want to just use a general analytics platform like Google Analytics. What we’ve found is that all your analytics platforms, based on the nature of how those work, are really gonna be collecting some of that PHI, the way that they’ve now defined it.
Mark: And so really what you’re gonna have to probably do is find an analytics provider that does sign a BAA with you or allow you to keep your data on your own server so you can protect it, and then really kind of control what goes out the [00:19:00] door. So you can see that with things like server side analytics, some of that may be an option for those kinds of companies.
And then for that low risk tolerance, you’d also probably not do many pixels at all unless you really were confident about what was being passed in that pixel. So we would kind of limit you in what you could do, right? That would be our kind of recommendation and our guidance. Whereas on the higher risk tolerance side, it may be that, okay, we’re all right with using these types of pixels.
But even then we would probably still kind of lean toward, well, let’s not put them on specific pages, right? Let’s not do specific things with those pixels. Let’s just do the bare minimum that we need to really kind of make our marketing work. And what’s gonna be interesting there is that without that official guidelines and with those kind of gray areas and how risk tolerant you are, it’s kind of interesting to determine how your competitive advantage will go up or down based on that, right?
Mark: Because without some consistent enforcement or consistent kind of definition of [00:20:00] some of these things, the companies that feel like they can be more risk tolerant, can kind of maybe have an advantage in the market over some of the others and kind of trying to bridge that gap is gonna be tough. But I think there are creative ways that we can help the low risk tolerance clients still get around and still make it work.
So there’s contextual advertising that we can use. Things like in Google ads where we can look for other things people have searched and then we can give ads based on those things, right? So instead, we don’t really know anything about them but we’re using the information they’re providing us at the time to really help them see that yes, we have some options for you.
Mark: So I think there’s stuff we can still do for those low risk tolerance, but it’s definitely gonna be a little bit harder of a road for sure. And then finally, there’s gonna be, like we mentioned, there’s gonna be gray areas. So there’s low and there’s high, and then there’s gonna be a lot of stuff in between.
And so I think we’re gonna have different points of yes, we’re okay using Google Analytics, but no, we don’t want to use these pixels. Or we’d rather just use, generic click tracking like a Lucky Orange or Crazy Egg or [00:21:00] something like that, which, we’re still not clear about if that’s passing user information, we think it’s probably okay.
But, again, still gray area and we’re all trying to figure it out right now.
Jenny: I think the thing that is exciting for me based off of our organization’s passion about improving patients access to care, is we’re trying to go in and help both groups be successful, right? Like we want legal to feel comfortable in the tools and processes that marketing is using, so they’re comfortable with the level of compliance.
And we want marketing to continue to be able to do their job and be successful. I think what’s gonna be really interesting is over the next year, watching as this continues to shift and evolve as case law does come out to be able to make it a little bit more definitive about how they’re going to be not only truly defining PHI, the importance of BAAs, but then, also, people’s perceived level of risk I think will continue to shift.
Well, thank you so much for being on today, Mark.
For any of you that are currently [00:22:00] struggling with this and whether you’re on the legal side or on the marketing side, know that we’ll be on your side and we’ll help both sides of the groups feel comfortable with solutions.
We’d love to work with you. Give us a call. We have just a couple of additional slots available over the next couple of months to take on some additional clients for consulting work outside of our normal client workload.
Would love to work with you, and help you solve this problem.
So have a great day and thank you for tuning in.